TonyCarter
VALUED CONTRIBUTOR
Well, blue is 'hotter' in the light spectrum than red, so surely red is the coolest?
Red = 1,000º kelvin
Blue = 10,000º kelvin
Red = 1,000º kelvin
Blue = 10,000º kelvin
Fan Configurations - (because I was very bored today....)
- Thread starter NoddyPirate
- Start date
NoddyPirate
Grand Master
100% correct @TonyCarter ! Astronomers everywhere nod to you also!
TonyCarter
VALUED CONTRIBUTOR
Pity my knowledge only comes from trying to explain to boy racers/barry boys that ice blue @ 7000K xenons do not give out more light than cool yellow at 4000K.
NoddyPirate
Grand Master
TonyCarter
VALUED CONTRIBUTOR
Lumens, candela, lux, nits, pixts...all very confusing.
Wonder if someone could shine a light on the whole subject.
Wonder if someone could shine a light on the whole subject.
NoddyPirate
Grand Master
Any Rocket Scientists in the forum? I mean, it's not exactly Brain Surgery now is it?
5200k is the "whitest" proven fact...... I eyeballed it. I had to settle for 6000k on my car though.
Ironically, the amount of people who would argue over the colour of their HIDs on various forums was hilarious, they couldn't comprehend that the margins of the product they bought meant that they were never accurate representations of the kelvin spectrum
Even more ironically, in one particular discussion, they thought I was the idiot.
Ironically, the amount of people who would argue over the colour of their HIDs on various forums was hilarious, they couldn't comprehend that the margins of the product they bought meant that they were never accurate representations of the kelvin spectrum
Even more ironically, in one particular discussion, they thought I was the idiot.
Back to serious ponderings:
I imagine the rear fans are helping direct the airflow in a more meaningful way. The actual airflow through the case will remain the same, but having the rear fans manipulating that flow brings it over the VRMs..... which is always going to be a positive. You can normally view the VRM temperature using HWInfo though, rather than requiring a heat gun. They are always handy but, as you have found, metallic shiny is not IR's friend.
No surprises with the 220T though. Most proper "Airflow" cases I've seen will all handle temperatures very well, even the compact ones.
With all that being said, I would suggest that 1C would be margin of error in most scenarios.
NoddyPirate
Grand Master
Yes I think that's it @Scott . The exhausts are controlling the airflow more than moving it - again I think ensuring you have intakes pushing more air in than the exhuast can suck out on their own is the key too. Positive pressure will find an outlet no matter what - and the exhausts are just enticing it a little more towards the upper rear where the VRM's live.
My motherboard (PRIME-B550-PLUS) doesn't have any VRM sensors sadly so I can't get a direct readout from HWM. One of these days I'll get a little thermocouple and do Part 3!
I totally agree about the margin of error - 1 degree is likely just a fraction of the applicable error in a silly set up like mine. But I only quoted it because I could reproduce it consistently. Still - it's as small a difference as doesn't matter really - particualrly when you are in the 60's to begin with.
The 220T bascially has three of it's 6 sides wide open - and the fourth includes an intake for the PSU which exhausts outside also - that's a key part of why it works so well I think. As long as the intakes fans are doing enough to get a decent amount of air in there then it will be a good performer!
NoddyPirate
Grand Master
Right so - the last of my installments here. This is even more wordy so I won't fill up the forum with more of my waffle after this, but I do think this one is the most interesting.
A few recent posts here from a few who have seen apparent AIO failures got me thinking.....
Assuming a fully loaded CPU:
An AIO radiator fan failure would be a significant issue but I expect it would manifest itself relatively slowly. The radiator would eventually become heat soaked and the CPU temperature would rise possibly to a serious degree. Case airflow really wouldn't help as the radiator would present a fairly high resistance escape path.
An AIO Pump failure on the other hand, or any other fluid flow related failure, could become very serious very quickly - whatever heat is being drawn away from the IHS to the baseplate would have nowhere to go without active liquid flow and the CPU temperature would rise very quickly. Your radiator fans would likely increase in speed but provide zero benefit to the situation. No amount of case airflow around the CPU block would help either.
So, what would happen if the fan on your tower air cooler failed? In theory at least, a tower cooler is just a huge heat sink - all the heat extraction work is done passively - well not passively exactly, it's through active phase changes within the heatpipes - but without outside intervention required to get the heat away from the CPU IHS. That heat is then transferred up to the heat sink fins and gets dissipated into the airflow blowing across them. If the CPU fan failed, any case airflow should still remove some of this excess heat - so it seemed to me that you should be able to continue to run albeit it at higher temperatures. But how far could you go and for how long? Could the case fans do enough to compensate?
I felt that with enough headroom to begin with, and enough air moving through the case, you should be quite able to survive a tower cooler fan failure.
So, I turned my CPU fan to it's lowest setting (270 RPM) - cos I can't actually turn it off fully like the other fans and I couldn't be bothered disconnecting it completely and dealing with the likely fan failure warnings. I figured that 270 RPM is probably only counteracting the restriction to airflow it would create by sitting still anyway.
Previously, I saw a temperature of around 84 degrees with just the CPU fan running at minimum speed. I'd be fairly confident that leaving it that way would eventually see the temperature increase further as everything - heat sink and surrounding components - heat soaked. I certainly wasn't going to test that theory, but as a guess, with no fans at all anywhere, I would say I could run for about 4-5 minutes before the temperatures would exceed 90 degrees.
So adding other fans at full tilt with effectively no CPU fan gave me the following:
Front Fans – 78 degrees.
Front plus one Rear Extract – 69 degrees
Front plus Rear plus two Roof Extracts – 67 degrees.
I was not expecting those results I must say. Clearly the rear extract here was hugely helping to clear the heat from the back of the heat sink and assisted in getting air moving through the whole assembly. So with basically no CPU fan, but everything else running at full speed, I was easily back in the 60's. Impressive!
The last step was to put everything back to 1,000 RPM, except for the CPU fan of course, to keep the noise down. Temperature slowly increased back to 69 degrees before settling there. Similar to previous tests – and a bit like a river cruiser - going above 1,000 RPM produces more additional noise than anything else!
Again the 220T case has a huge part in all this I would think. But I do think it is valid to say that this is a benefit of tower air coolers, particularly for CPU's that don't threaten to push the limits of a coolers TDP capability in the first place. The majority of a tower cooler is static with just the fan as the only moving part and likely failure point. But even if that fan fails, in my case at least, I could happily keep on going, albeit with a noisier machine. And after a €10 fan change I'd be back to work as normal. This also shows why a fully 'passive' air cooler like Noctua are pondering can work fine with enough general airflow.
An AIO can of course do much more in terms of cooling and is a must for high TDP CPU's, but it's failure points are more numerous and a failure will likely render the system unstable or even unusable. A pump, rad, or pipe failure would also require a complete cooler replacement to fix while your machine remains switched off. Which I why I agree with all others here that reliability is paramount with an AIO – cost should be a secondary concern.
I'm not dissing AIO's at all I hope you understand – But I am convinced that tower coolers have their place more than some here may believe or be willing to accede. If you're not pushing a CPU with a high TDP near the coolers limit, then they can do the job easily. On top of that, a tower cooler will most likely see it’s only weak point be the fan and not the assembly itself. Yes you can have issues with tolerances at the CPU plate and so on but assuming it works acceptably to begin with, it can clearly still work if that only moving part gives up the ghost.
Discuss……
A few recent posts here from a few who have seen apparent AIO failures got me thinking.....
Assuming a fully loaded CPU:
An AIO radiator fan failure would be a significant issue but I expect it would manifest itself relatively slowly. The radiator would eventually become heat soaked and the CPU temperature would rise possibly to a serious degree. Case airflow really wouldn't help as the radiator would present a fairly high resistance escape path.
An AIO Pump failure on the other hand, or any other fluid flow related failure, could become very serious very quickly - whatever heat is being drawn away from the IHS to the baseplate would have nowhere to go without active liquid flow and the CPU temperature would rise very quickly. Your radiator fans would likely increase in speed but provide zero benefit to the situation. No amount of case airflow around the CPU block would help either.
So, what would happen if the fan on your tower air cooler failed? In theory at least, a tower cooler is just a huge heat sink - all the heat extraction work is done passively - well not passively exactly, it's through active phase changes within the heatpipes - but without outside intervention required to get the heat away from the CPU IHS. That heat is then transferred up to the heat sink fins and gets dissipated into the airflow blowing across them. If the CPU fan failed, any case airflow should still remove some of this excess heat - so it seemed to me that you should be able to continue to run albeit it at higher temperatures. But how far could you go and for how long? Could the case fans do enough to compensate?
I felt that with enough headroom to begin with, and enough air moving through the case, you should be quite able to survive a tower cooler fan failure.
So, I turned my CPU fan to it's lowest setting (270 RPM) - cos I can't actually turn it off fully like the other fans and I couldn't be bothered disconnecting it completely and dealing with the likely fan failure warnings. I figured that 270 RPM is probably only counteracting the restriction to airflow it would create by sitting still anyway.
Previously, I saw a temperature of around 84 degrees with just the CPU fan running at minimum speed. I'd be fairly confident that leaving it that way would eventually see the temperature increase further as everything - heat sink and surrounding components - heat soaked. I certainly wasn't going to test that theory, but as a guess, with no fans at all anywhere, I would say I could run for about 4-5 minutes before the temperatures would exceed 90 degrees.
So adding other fans at full tilt with effectively no CPU fan gave me the following:
Front Fans – 78 degrees.
Front plus one Rear Extract – 69 degrees
Front plus Rear plus two Roof Extracts – 67 degrees.
I was not expecting those results I must say. Clearly the rear extract here was hugely helping to clear the heat from the back of the heat sink and assisted in getting air moving through the whole assembly. So with basically no CPU fan, but everything else running at full speed, I was easily back in the 60's. Impressive!
The last step was to put everything back to 1,000 RPM, except for the CPU fan of course, to keep the noise down. Temperature slowly increased back to 69 degrees before settling there. Similar to previous tests – and a bit like a river cruiser - going above 1,000 RPM produces more additional noise than anything else!
Again the 220T case has a huge part in all this I would think. But I do think it is valid to say that this is a benefit of tower air coolers, particularly for CPU's that don't threaten to push the limits of a coolers TDP capability in the first place. The majority of a tower cooler is static with just the fan as the only moving part and likely failure point. But even if that fan fails, in my case at least, I could happily keep on going, albeit with a noisier machine. And after a €10 fan change I'd be back to work as normal. This also shows why a fully 'passive' air cooler like Noctua are pondering can work fine with enough general airflow.
An AIO can of course do much more in terms of cooling and is a must for high TDP CPU's, but it's failure points are more numerous and a failure will likely render the system unstable or even unusable. A pump, rad, or pipe failure would also require a complete cooler replacement to fix while your machine remains switched off. Which I why I agree with all others here that reliability is paramount with an AIO – cost should be a secondary concern.
I'm not dissing AIO's at all I hope you understand – But I am convinced that tower coolers have their place more than some here may believe or be willing to accede. If you're not pushing a CPU with a high TDP near the coolers limit, then they can do the job easily. On top of that, a tower cooler will most likely see it’s only weak point be the fan and not the assembly itself. Yes you can have issues with tolerances at the CPU plate and so on but assuming it works acceptably to begin with, it can clearly still work if that only moving part gives up the ghost.
Discuss……
Air coolers don't have a place for me personally anymore, but they can of course be used in a multitude of areas.
The crux of it all is..... what is the chances of failure?
I've had 3 AIOs in my AIO lifetime and not had one single defect or issue in all that time. My PC always runs 24/7 with various stress loads through time.
With my current system I simply couldn't not run an AIO, it wouldn't hold up to any sort of stress work (An overclocked 9900k). In my previous home I don't think an air cooler would stand a chance even with the 9900k at stock, as it was in a cupboard.
For me, weighing up an AIO failure and opting for an air cooler to help alleviate that issue is like walking instead of driving a car in case the wheels fall off.
According to the internet and youtube and haters and all the other sources of AIO disinformation, AIO failure is a fairly common issue. Other than actual open loop watercooling I haven't read a single issue on here..... and that's in a forum where people aren't shy at complaining.
An AIO is as likely to fail as an aircooler IMO. And I've never had an aircooler fail either. They use DC motors, these things don't break and I have 80s Scalextric cars that prove this
On the flip side.... have you considered the stress on the motherboard with the weight of the cooler hanging off the CPU? It's not insignificant. It's unlikely to be too much of an issue but given some time and the odd trip and it's not hard to consider potential motherboard/cpu failings due to this weight. Even if they were more common than cooler failures, it's unlikely that these failings will be tied to the actual cooler tower so there is a potentially masked issue here.
Another thing to consider. Passive coolers are coming to desktops pretty soon. They will have mounting and hinges and work similar to how you have concluded, with them being geared towards exhaust fan areas.
Now.... the reason why I no longer recommend air coolers.....
Stock coolers are fine for most uses.
Where more cooling potential is required, I can't recommend spending £30 for OK cooling when you can have excellent cooling for £45
When purchasing a cooler anyway, why not purchase one that will cover for almost ANY CPU upgrade you could want in the future.
The down side with AIOs, and it's well known, is that in order to get good cooling AND good acoustics, it takes a circa £100 AIO. Not the best value for money but for me it's well worth it.
The crux of it all is..... what is the chances of failure?
I've had 3 AIOs in my AIO lifetime and not had one single defect or issue in all that time. My PC always runs 24/7 with various stress loads through time.
With my current system I simply couldn't not run an AIO, it wouldn't hold up to any sort of stress work (An overclocked 9900k). In my previous home I don't think an air cooler would stand a chance even with the 9900k at stock, as it was in a cupboard.
For me, weighing up an AIO failure and opting for an air cooler to help alleviate that issue is like walking instead of driving a car in case the wheels fall off.
According to the internet and youtube and haters and all the other sources of AIO disinformation, AIO failure is a fairly common issue. Other than actual open loop watercooling I haven't read a single issue on here..... and that's in a forum where people aren't shy at complaining.
An AIO is as likely to fail as an aircooler IMO. And I've never had an aircooler fail either. They use DC motors, these things don't break and I have 80s Scalextric cars that prove this
On the flip side.... have you considered the stress on the motherboard with the weight of the cooler hanging off the CPU? It's not insignificant. It's unlikely to be too much of an issue but given some time and the odd trip and it's not hard to consider potential motherboard/cpu failings due to this weight. Even if they were more common than cooler failures, it's unlikely that these failings will be tied to the actual cooler tower so there is a potentially masked issue here.
Another thing to consider. Passive coolers are coming to desktops pretty soon. They will have mounting and hinges and work similar to how you have concluded, with them being geared towards exhaust fan areas.
Now.... the reason why I no longer recommend air coolers.....
Stock coolers are fine for most uses.
Where more cooling potential is required, I can't recommend spending £30 for OK cooling when you can have excellent cooling for £45
When purchasing a cooler anyway, why not purchase one that will cover for almost ANY CPU upgrade you could want in the future.
The down side with AIOs, and it's well known, is that in order to get good cooling AND good acoustics, it takes a circa £100 AIO. Not the best value for money but for me it's well worth it.
Is it terribly shallow of me that the biggest thing I took away from that is that your system no longer lives in a cupboard? 😜Air coolers don't have a place for me personally anymore, but they can of course be used in a multitude of areas.
The crux of it all is..... what is the chances of failure?
I've had 3 AIOs in my AIO lifetime and not had one single defect or issue in all that time. My PC always runs 24/7 with various stress loads through time.
With my current system I simply couldn't not run an AIO, it wouldn't hold up to any sort of stress work (An overclocked 9900k). In my previous home I don't think an air cooler would stand a chance even with the 9900k at stock, as it was in a cupboard.
For me, weighing up an AIO failure and opting for an air cooler to help alleviate that issue is like walking instead of driving a car in case the wheels fall off.
According to the internet and youtube and haters and all the other sources of AIO disinformation, AIO failure is a fairly common issue. Other than actual open loop watercooling I haven't read a single issue on here..... and that's in a forum where people aren't shy at complaining.
An AIO is as likely to fail as an aircooler IMO. And I've never had an aircooler fail either. They use DC motors, these things don't break and I have 80s Scalextric cars that prove this
On the flip side.... have you considered the stress on the motherboard with the weight of the cooler hanging off the CPU? It's not insignificant. It's unlikely to be too much of an issue but given some time and the odd trip and it's not hard to consider potential motherboard/cpu failings due to this weight. Even if they were more common than cooler failures, it's unlikely that these failings will be tied to the actual cooler tower so there is a potentially masked issue here.
Another thing to consider. Passive coolers are coming to desktops pretty soon. They will have mounting and hinges and work similar to how you have concluded, with them being geared towards exhaust fan areas.
Now.... the reason why I no longer recommend air coolers.....
Stock coolers are fine for most uses.
Where more cooling potential is required, I can't recommend spending £30 for OK cooling when you can have excellent cooling for £45
When purchasing a cooler anyway, why not purchase one that will cover for almost ANY CPU upgrade you could want in the future.
The down side with AIOs, and it's well known, is that in order to get good cooling AND good acoustics, it takes a circa £100 AIO. Not the best value for money but for me it's well worth it.
It's now on the open floor with every wire/cable/connection to it going in the direction that leads to the shortest route....... wanna see?
Crikey. Amazing bits of kit but that imagery is worse than the opening scene of Saving Private Ryan. I’m pretty sure we should be changing your title from ‘Modinator’ to ‘Fire Hazard’.
Professional what...? I’m led to believe that you’re a...Believe it or not..... I'm a professional
Maniac!Cables bunched together are more likely to ignite than those spread out and airing freely
I see your point, that must be why battery chickens spontaneously burst into flames more often than free range hens 🤨
NoddyPirate
Grand Master
There's a lot to unpack in there @Scott!Air coolers don't have a place for me personally anymore, but they can of course be used in a multitude of areas.
The crux of it all is..... what is the chances of failure?
I've had 3 AIOs in my AIO lifetime and not had one single defect or issue in all that time. My PC always runs 24/7 with various stress loads through time.
With my current system I simply couldn't not run an AIO, it wouldn't hold up to any sort of stress work (An overclocked 9900k). In my previous home I don't think an air cooler would stand a chance even with the 9900k at stock, as it was in a cupboard.
For me, weighing up an AIO failure and opting for an air cooler to help alleviate that issue is like walking instead of driving a car in case the wheels fall off.
According to the internet and youtube and haters and all the other sources of AIO disinformation, AIO failure is a fairly common issue. Other than actual open loop watercooling I haven't read a single issue on here..... and that's in a forum where people aren't shy at complaining.
An AIO is as likely to fail as an aircooler IMO. And I've never had an aircooler fail either. They use DC motors, these things don't break and I have 80s Scalextric cars that prove this
On the flip side.... have you considered the stress on the motherboard with the weight of the cooler hanging off the CPU? It's not insignificant. It's unlikely to be too much of an issue but given some time and the odd trip and it's not hard to consider potential motherboard/cpu failings due to this weight. Even if they were more common than cooler failures, it's unlikely that these failings will be tied to the actual cooler tower so there is a potentially masked issue here.
Another thing to consider. Passive coolers are coming to desktops pretty soon. They will have mounting and hinges and work similar to how you have concluded, with them being geared towards exhaust fan areas.
Now.... the reason why I no longer recommend air coolers.....
Stock coolers are fine for most uses.
Where more cooling potential is required, I can't recommend spending £30 for OK cooling when you can have excellent cooling for £45
When purchasing a cooler anyway, why not purchase one that will cover for almost ANY CPU upgrade you could want in the future.
The down side with AIOs, and it's well known, is that in order to get good cooling AND good acoustics, it takes a circa £100 AIO. Not the best value for money but for me it's well worth it.
Thanks for your take!!I can see why you may have felt I was suggesting to opt for an air cooler in order to avoid the risk of an AIO failure - but I genuinely was not - as that would be silly. If an AIO is best suited to your needs then it would be foolish to get anything other than an AIO. I was interested in looking at this simply because of a couple of recent threads here relating to likely AIO failure in the last couple of days - so there certainly has been some reports - but I'm only looking at it as a pondering - not as a one in favour of the other. Statistically a couple of failures here and there is irrelevant anyway of course. Just as your personal experience with AIO's is or equally mine with air cooling.
I don't think there will be any benefit in my replying to your specific points cos it would be nothing more than a difference of opinions on minutae mostly.
But perhaps take me as an example - I have no intention to Overclock now or in the future. I have a relatively low TDP CPU and any likely future upgrades would do also. However, I had read a lot (and I do mean a lot) of reports and reviews of the 5600X running very hot with the stock AMD cooler - the Wraith Stealth - which is the most basic of the AMD bunch right now. With the low TDP go figure why those reports are out there - bad pasting perhaps, or poor installs, or something more fundamental perhaps.....but they exist nonetheless.
Given I would be seeing some multi-core work, a little extra help seemed prudent. I can't see any justification that could be presented to spend £100+ on an AIO when a £30 tower cooler would give me exactly what I need - for now and later. Whatever extra cooling I would see with an AIO would make no discernable difference to performance, or CPU or build lifespan.
All the research I have done suggests that on a scale with Stock coolers on one end and AIO's on the other, in many cases tower coolers perform closer to AIO's than to Stock, across a wide range of coolers of all types, save of course for the more extreme setups. So I do think that the cooling improvement with a tower cooler is more marked than you suggest.
But I also think that Tower Coolers can be a bit of a four-letter word sometimes here. I'm just not really convinced that should be the case. Sometimes the middle ground might actually be a perfect fit.....?
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