But it should have been 54.
Fan Configurations - (because I was very bored today....)
- Thread starter NoddyPirate
- Start date
JUNI0R
VALUED CONTRIBUTOR
All very interesting!
Those are some very high temps! Might be worth recommending a cooler to everyone, even if it’s the little PCS one. It seems to have a good effect!
I watched a video of a review of a pre-specced PCS system where someone named the PCS 240 AIO as the ID cooling Zoomflow 240. Instantly did some research and seems like a good bit of kit. This comparison between it and the H100i was especially intriguing. It’ll be interesting to hear if your cooler lasts the test of time.
Happy to hear about the quality of the PCS fans, sounds like they’re little bargains!
NoddyPirate
Grand Master
Yeah someone esle pointed that ID Cooling link out before here - may well have been yourself @JUNI0R actually - and the Frostflow 100 seems to be the ID Cooling SE 224 - which also gets good reviews.
For a tower cooler the main thing that will go wrong is the fan fails. It would literally cost €10 to fix that with a simple plug and play replacement - I guess the heat pipes or heat sink could give up somehow - but I think that would be extremely unlikely given they are entirely non-moving parts. So I'd be faily confident all will be well for me.
The only thing about my testing that I would say is when I was running the CPU fan only I could feel the heat coming out of the top of the case. Most likely this was coming from the VRM - which would had very little airflow across is as the CPU Fan was blowing well over the top of it. This may be be where exhaust fans make a difference too - and certainly where intake fans are a necessity.
My Motherboard doesn't have a sensor on the VRM so I couldn't see what was happening there - but I might try and run the tests again but with an IR temperature sensor watching the VRM heatsink if I can.....
For a tower cooler the main thing that will go wrong is the fan fails. It would literally cost €10 to fix that with a simple plug and play replacement - I guess the heat pipes or heat sink could give up somehow - but I think that would be extremely unlikely given they are entirely non-moving parts. So I'd be faily confident all will be well for me.
The only thing about my testing that I would say is when I was running the CPU fan only I could feel the heat coming out of the top of the case. Most likely this was coming from the VRM - which would had very little airflow across is as the CPU Fan was blowing well over the top of it. This may be be where exhaust fans make a difference too - and certainly where intake fans are a necessity.
My Motherboard doesn't have a sensor on the VRM so I couldn't see what was happening there - but I might try and run the tests again but with an IR temperature sensor watching the VRM heatsink if I can.....
Good work done there.
As an addition for you to ponder. Believe it or not, with your setup as it stands, it would actually be cooler without the exhaust fans. If you took them out altogether and ran with just the intake and your CPU fan the temps would be lower again due to the restriction that the exhaust fans bring to the equation. When the exhaust fans are on, they are basically only counteracting their own restriction. Taking them out would have the same effect.
A balanced system is the key and exhaust fans will often aid perfecting a balance, but with airflow cases this is far less important. Nowadays, any components that are bringing serious heat will be met with an AIO, which brings with it its own exhaust to balance things out for the most part.
With daily use in mind you want to have a slightly positive pressure in the case, to expel dust through non-filtered pathways. To do this have the intake fans on, but the exhaust fans not. When putting it through its paces having everything on definitely won't hurt.
As an addition for you to ponder. Believe it or not, with your setup as it stands, it would actually be cooler without the exhaust fans. If you took them out altogether and ran with just the intake and your CPU fan the temps would be lower again due to the restriction that the exhaust fans bring to the equation. When the exhaust fans are on, they are basically only counteracting their own restriction. Taking them out would have the same effect.
A balanced system is the key and exhaust fans will often aid perfecting a balance, but with airflow cases this is far less important. Nowadays, any components that are bringing serious heat will be met with an AIO, which brings with it its own exhaust to balance things out for the most part.
With daily use in mind you want to have a slightly positive pressure in the case, to expel dust through non-filtered pathways. To do this have the intake fans on, but the exhaust fans not. When putting it through its paces having everything on definitely won't hurt.
This reminds me of the power rating of audio speakers. RMS is the actual value, in this case 230 volts, with the peak being 230 times the square root of 2. Without a calculator that would be around 320 but I cheated to check my answer and found that it's actually 325v.
And... *ahem* .... which structure would you trust more if your life depended on it (Aero engineer here too
)
NoddyPirate
Grand Master
Yes that's a great point Scott. The rear exhaust windmilling in my CPU Fan only tests is evidence of exactly that. Adding nothing but restriction to the flow of air trying to exit the case.
My goal was positive pressure to keep the dust down - which I tested entirely scientifically with a stick of incense on another thread a while back! I have my intakes running at higher speeds than my exhausts in an attempt to try to keep that balance - but I am sure you are totally correct that the same effect would exist with the exahusts removed entirely.
NoddyPirate
Grand Master
Correct!!! Bravo!!
It's a simple process to work it out in the old noggin really:
RMS - is root mean square - with a Sine wave we just have to work backwards!
Assume a 100 volt peak to make the numbers easy - you need two values or more to have a mean. So the easiest values are 0 and 100.
Sqaure them and add them - (0x0) + (100x100) = 10,000
Get the mean of the squares - 10,000/2 = 5,000
Get the sqaure root of the mean - sqr 5,000 = 70.7106.
So a 100 volt peak gives a 70.710678 RMS. A ratio of 1 : 0.707106. Which you hopefully recognise as simply 1 over the sqaure root of 2!
So the peak voltage of your quoted AC supply voltage of 230V - divided by (1 over the square root 2) = 230V multiplied by square root of 2 = 325 and a bit V.
👏👏
I'll add you in to our next Quiz Scott!
Oh, I'm not disputing it, I just love the contrastAnd... *ahem* .... which structure would you trust more if your life depended on it (Aero engineer here too
My degree was in Ophthalmic Dispensing (in layman's terms, a spectacle frame and lens geek) and engineers were always an absolute nightmare to do a dispense on because they would query every measurement I'd take and they could pick apart a frame in seconds and tell me how it could be made better.
Although I was proud of myself when I had to make a frame for an engineer who'd unfortunately lost one of his ears due to a horrific burn and he said he'd struggle to improve on my design... I'd been sweating on that one for days!
Correct!!! Bravo!!
It's a simple process to work it out in the old noggin really:
RMS - is root mean square - with a Sine wave we just have to work backwards!
Assume a 100 volt peak to make the numbers easy - you need two values or more to have a mean. So the easiest values are 0 and 100.
Sqaure them and add them - (0x0) + (100x100) = 10,000
Get the mean of the squares - 10,000/2 = 5,000
Get the sqaure root of the mean - sqr 5,000 = 70.7106.
So a 100 volt peak gives a 70.710678 RMS. A ratio of 1 : 0.707106. Which you hopefully recognise as simply 1 over the sqaure root of 2!
So the peak voltage of your quoted AC supply voltage of 230V - divided by (1 over the square root 2) = 230V multiplied by square root of 2 = 325 and a bit V.
👏👏
I'll add you in to our next Quiz Scott!
I'm a curious person. My curiosity was piqued when I blew up my 1000W Subwoofer putting 1000W through it. I tend to learn my lessons the hard way...... well, I was taught it all in school but it doesn't actually stick in my brain until it makes logical sense. Bits of subwoofer cone lying around my boot gave the practical experience nudge that I required for that particular piece of education.
Initially I found that I needed to consider around 70%.... further digging led to the root 2 & sine wave understanding.
I'm pretty sure my education took this understanding FAR further, but without the practical memory bump I don't really recall much of it. I did love physics though, excelled at it at the time.
Oh, I'm not disputing it, I just love the contrast
My degree was in Ophthalmic Dispensing (in layman's terms, a spectacle frame and lens geek) and engineers were always an absolute nightmare to do a dispense on because they would query every measurement I'd take and they could pick apart a frame in seconds and tell me how it could be made better.
Although I was proud of myself when I had to make a frame for an engineer who'd unfortunately lost one of his ears due to a horrific burn and he said he'd struggle to improve on my design... I'd been sweating on that one for days!
I'm sure I have many friends who will feel your pain 😂
They know me well enough to tell me to *insert expletive meaning go away* though.
NoddyPirate
Grand Master
Ha! That's a great story! Yes sometimes it's those "Oh S%@t" moments that immediately precede an "Ahhhh, now I get it!" moment!
I was recently studying the internals of an AC plug USB charger to pass the time - as one does of course - and couldn't figure out why they had 400V capacitors in it for a 230V supply hence the RMS discovery.
It's amazing the rabbit holes such a thought process can lead you quickly down with the internet at your finger tips. I spent hours stepping from one stone to another before I realised I had completely forgotten what I sat down at the computer to look up. How did we get by all those years ago with only books and a war story or two!???
Martinr36
MOST VALUED CONTRIBUTOR
Contact lenses would be the easy answer to that one............ 😂Oh, I'm not disputing it, I just love the contrast
My degree was in Ophthalmic Dispensing (in layman's terms, a spectacle frame and lens geek) and engineers were always an absolute nightmare to do a dispense on because they would query every measurement I'd take and they could pick apart a frame in seconds and tell me how it could be made better.
Although I was proud of myself when I had to make a frame for an engineer who'd unfortunately lost one of his ears due to a horrific burn and he said he'd struggle to improve on my design... I'd been sweating on that one for days!
If only it were that easy, the fella in question needed prism correction, a high degree of astigmatism and he was presbyopic... none of those things lend themselves easily to correction via contact lenses.
Martinr36
MOST VALUED CONTRIBUTOR
I wear contacts, and last year for some reason they withdrew the ones i was using, so when the next 3 months worth came through they were very slightly different and i didn't really get on with them which i told the optician when i went for my next test, apparently they had a slightly less curvature on them and to me it made a load of difference
It's amazing the difference that base curve can make to both comfort and visual clarity. Working in optics is one of the most interesting jobs I've ever had as the field is constantly moving forwards. I just had to get out of it because I ended up working in high street opticians and it becomes a lot more mercenary there. I resented being told to push a lens that I knew was worse for the patient but made the company more money. That's not why I got into healthcare, I wanted to help people.
NoddyPirate
Grand Master
Bored again today.....exhaust fans removed and some new tests completed.....I do hope lockdown ends here soon so I can actually spend my time doing something useful.
Anyway, the results are quite interesting actually - that is if you are rather sad like me:
With the exhaust fans removed, the only temperatures that I could consistently see a difference in was the CPU Fan Only test - which ran about 1 or 2 degrees cooler with the exhaust fans completely removed - showing that the fans installed but stationary were restricting airflow - exactly as @Scott predicted.
To get close to the same results - but with the exhausts actually installed - I needed to have them running at about their minimum speed. For the Arctic fan this was about 275 RPM as it's PWM, but for the 3 pin PCS fans this was about 600 RPM - which is quite high really and would have skewed the results a bit I think. Anyway, roughly speaking, and within an acceptably large margin of error that comes with such tests, the exhausts needed to be running at a slow to moderate speed to compensate for the drag they create by existing in the first place. Again as @Scott predicted.
The surprise for me was with the rest of the results - all other configurations - front fans on but with exhausts removed - remained within 1 degree of the previous tests with the exhaust fans installed but off. I ran tests with the fans in but off, then took them out and ran them again, then put them back in and ran them again, and the temperatures were all bascially the same. And again I could consistently get a 1 degree improvement with the exhausts running at 1,000 RPM when the fronts were at the same speed too.
I don't think this actually proves or disproves anything discussed earlier in this thread - except that I think it does show that the 220T case really does have a decent airflow setup that means exhaust obstructions such as stationary fans doesn't have a noticeable impact. The majority of the top section is bascially an open grill after all. But it would be really interesting to try such a test with a case where the main means of escape is only through the exhaust fan aperture.
My last conclusion is realting to VRM temperatures. My little infra red temperature sensor didn't like the aluminium heatsink or the shiny component and motherboard surfaces so I could get any useful info - even by trying to use the back side of the motherboard as a reference - and I wasn't going to do the usual trick of applying matt black electrical tape to them to help. But subjectively speaking at least:
With the exhaust fans in but off or removed completely, I could feel the heat from the VRM through the top of the case. A small section at the back directly over the rear of the upper VRM heatsink. With just the CPU fan running the temperature here was enough to make me wonder what the hell I was doing all this for! But even with the front intakes running it was still quite marked. Once the exhausts were running though, the hotspot would disappear entirely.
SO! While I don't think the exhaust fans make any really significant difference to the CPU temperatures that you might send a postcard about, it would appear, to me at least, that they may well keep the airflow moving around the VRM and MOSFETs which can't be a bad thing at all. So they shall stay in place for that (possibly only pshychological) benefit at least!
Now, time to go do something useful. Anyone have any ideas?
TonyCarter
VALUED CONTRIBUTOR
I think you have to do it all again, but with with different makes of fans, different bearing configurations, and with RGB options too - just to be totally fair and not pick on the black ones - we all know pink fairy dust bearing ones are the coolest/fastest/quietest.
NoddyPirate
Grand Master
Funny enough - RGB fans are known to impact performance as the centre spindle is generally thicker which restricts the mass of air they can push along.
But I wonder if the colours would make a difference the way they affect your overall system performance? Red must make the CPU hotter surely?
Funny enough - RGB fans are known to impact performance as the centre spindle is generally thicker which restricts the mass of air they can push along.
But I wonder if the colours would make a difference the way they affect your overall system performance? Red must make the CPU hotter surely?
You need the light blue for optimum cooling...