Very Unsatisfactory End to an Exciting F1 Season

NoddyPirate

NoddyPirate

Grand Master
barlew said:
Oh I 100% agree with you, that decision was made for TV. Lets not forget F1 is currently in the middle of a bit of an image crisis and the sport is desperately trying to get new viewers. The decision was definitely made with this in mind.

However the decision was not against the rules...
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The claim of using the race directors authority to supercede all other related rules sounds reasonable in principle, but in practice it is utterly untenable. The Director can't make things up as he sees fit or the entire system falls apart.

The decision that 48.13 supercedes 48.12 is also bonkers. Masi sent the message that the safety car was coming in and so it has to come in, but the fact that the message shouldn't have been sent in the first place can't be overlooked so easily. The intent of the rules is always relevant when it comes to legal interpretation. And the intention of 48.13 was never to allow 48.12 be usurped. That fact matters.

It all reads to me as a defense by the stewards of their race director, not as a correct interpretation of the rules. Which is why mercedes have a very decent case in front of them now. The stewards ill-advised admission that 48.12 wasn't implemented fully won't help their cause in the end I think.

Having said all that - I think the ship should be allowed sail for the sake of the sport. Let Verstappen have his Championship - which he has been leading for many races now including into the last race effectively given his race wins. So there can be no sour grapes from that point of view.

What I would love to see would be Mercedes releasing a statement that Lewis has asked them to drop the legal challenge. But I think that might be wishful thinking on my part!!!
 
barlew

barlew

Godlike
NoddyPirate said:
The claim of using the race directors authority to supercede all other related rules sounds reasonable in principle, but in practice it is utterly untenable. The Director can't make things up as he sees fit or the entire system falls apart.

The decision that 48.13 supercedes 48.12 is also bonkers. Masi sent the message that the safety car was coming in and so it has to come in, but the fact that the message shouldn't have been sent in the first place can't be overlooked so easily. The intent of the rules is always relevant when it comes to legal interpretation. And the intention of 48.13 was never to allow 48.12 be usurped. That fact matters.

It all reads to me as a defense by the stewards of their race director, not as a correct interpretation of the rules. Which is why mercedes have a very decent case in front of them now. The stewards ill-advised admission that 48.12 wasn't implemented fully won't help their cause in the end I think.

Having said all that - I think the ship should be allowed sail for the sake of the sport. Let Verstappen have his Championship - which he has been leading for many races now including into the last race effectively given his race wins. So there can be no sour grapes from that point of view.

What I would love to see would be Mercedes releasing a statement that Lewis has asked them to drop the legal challenge. But I think that might be wishful thinking on my part!!!
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I don't agree with you on this at all. 48.12 and 48.13 are both governed by 15.3 which states the race director has overriding authority on how the rules governing deployment and withdrawal of the safety car are implemented.

Ergo if the race director says it is so then it is so. As I said before it is in black and white. Do I agree with it no. But again as I said before what Masi did was in line with what the rules say.

NoddyPirate said:
And the intention of 48.13 was never to allow 48.12 be usurped. That fact matters.
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That is not a fact that is your interpretation of the rules. Which is exactly what the FIA and Masi will say if it ever reached the court of arbitration. In fact the FIA who wrote the rules have already gone on record and stated the opposite to what you are saying.
 
NoddyPirate

NoddyPirate

Grand Master
barlew said:
I don't agree with you on this at all. 48.12 and 48.13 are both governed by 15.3 which states the race director has overriding authority on how the rules governing deployment and withdrawal of the safety car are implemented.

Ergo if the race director says it is so then it is so. As I said before it is in black and white. Do I agree with it no. But again as I said before what Masi did was in line with what the rules say.
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I know that what you feel is the case - but that interpretation would be untenable for a variety of reasons. That makes it unlikely to be easily defended.

barlew said:
That is not a fact that is your interpretation of the rules. Which is exactly what the FIA and Masi will say if it ever reached the court of arbitration. In fact the FIA who wrote the rules have already gone on record and stated the opposite to what you are saying.
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OK - fine, let's call it my interpretation so. But you also have your interpretation Barlew. So back off a little bit perhaps? Nobody here is right or wrong ultimately as none of us are experts either in racing or their associated legal matters. Let's not pretend either of us know exactly what was in the minds of whoever wrote any regulation. We're just sharing opinions - in both directions - as fans.....

The FIA statement is not the final word. It is a defense of their own and their Race Directors position which they are entitled to make. Courts will decide the final interpretation if it is taken that far, because the use of language and it's perceived intention in such things matters. There is a mountain of precedent for that 'fact'. The courts will not ask who wrote the rules, and then defer instead to them. It just is not that simple.

Like almost every discussion surrounding the end of this last race - it seems to cause contentious and never ending arguments that go around in circles! So let's just agree to disagree and move on! :)
 
barlew

barlew

Godlike
NoddyPirate said:
I know that what you feel is the case - but that interpretation would be untenable for a variety of reasons. That makes it unlikely to be easily defended.


OK - fine, let's call it my interpretation so. But you also have your interpretation Barlew. So back off a little bit perhaps? Nobody here is right or wrong ultimately as none of us are experts either in racing or their associated legal matters. Let's not pretend either of us know exactly what was in the minds of whoever wrote any regulation. We're just sharing opinions - in both directions - as fans.....

The FIA statement is not the final word. It is a defense of their own and their Race Directors position which they are entitled to make. Courts will decide the final interpretation if it is taken that far, because the use of language and it's perceived intention in such things matters. There is a mountain of precedent for that 'fact'. The courts will not ask who wrote the rules, and then defer instead to them. It just is not that simple.

Like almost every discussion surrounding the end of this last race - it seems to cause contentious and never ending arguments that go around in circles! So let's just agree to disagree and move on! :)
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Sorry I didn't mean to come across as hounding you. I agree with with your position of the current state of affairs. Namely its farcical. I think I just disagree with the cause of the problem.

I think the race management needs to be restructured. I also think the rules need rewriting. If they were more clear cut this situation would be very different.
 
D

Deleted member 41971

Guest
NoddyPirate said:
but I also feel for Max as there will be a cloud over his first Championship because of how things have been handled
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I would not worry, in time it will all be forgotten and in the fullness of history people will only remember who won in 2021 not how it was won, I am not a massive racing fan as sometimes it can be boring, I remember when Michael Schumacher kept winning race after race after race, yes he was very skilled but it was still at times too predictable.
 
JUNI0R

JUNI0R

VALUED CONTRIBUTOR
AgentCooper said:
Surely this can only be a good thing?

www.bbc.co.uk

FIA planning new F1 race-management structure after Abu Dhabi controversy

Formula 1's governing body is planning a new race-management structure in an attempt to avoid a repeat of the problems at last year's Abu Dhabi Grand Prix.
www.bbc.co.uk
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God hope so. I love that Masi chaired the meeting about his own wrong doings, what else would you expect from the FIA. Also I personally find the fact they're releasing their findings about what went wrong at AD 2 DAYS before the start of the 2022 season so incredibly scummy.
 
JUNI0R

JUNI0R

VALUED CONTRIBUTOR
As some of you have may already heard, Michael Masi has been removed as Race Director for Formula 1. He'll be replaced by Niels Wittich (DTM) and Eduardo (WEC) Freitas along with Herbie Blash acting as Permenant Senior Advisor. They'll also be implimenting a "Virtual Race Control Room", like VAR in football. Below is Ben Sulayem's speech on the matter with mention of more processes they plan to reassess & change.

FIA President Speech
FLzYStZX0AA8Nnp.png

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A joyous day for F1 fans alike I think!
 
barlew

barlew

Godlike
Well there we go. Time for me to eat my words!!!

What a sorry state of affairs all round. This is effectively now confirmation that Hamilton was indeed robbed of his championship win and it will forever taint the championship title now held by Verstappen.
 
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