Swapping Boot SSD

[GidRea]

Hmm, I now seem to have a completely unrelated issue. Not sure whether to raise it in the same thread. Anyway, here goes.

PC hangs.

Following the advice above, I created media on my old PC, took overnight to download as discussed. Installed, all partitions on both SSDs deleted at start of installation. I didn't delete (the) partition on the data HDD, which was previously formatted with the test installation, and never used. Created one admin user. Ran Windows Update over & over until it said it was all done, including optional updates.

During the above it has more than once sort of hung up. I say sort of because the mouse pointer still works. Sometimes, I can use it to drag a window. But clicking on anything does nothing, except in one case the mouse pointer changed to pointer plus the roundy-roundy "wait" thing. Also, in this state, Cntrl-Alt-Del does nothing. Sometimes I've left it a few hours to see if it unscrambles, but eventually have to press reset.

No apps installed except that I accepted the nag to install ASUS's BIOS tool. But at least the first freeze happened before that was installed. I don't think it could have been a much more bare installation.

One time happened when I had the ethernet controller disabled to keep it offline, the others it's been online, on our crappy slow mobile BB. But although I've frequently struggled functionally, and had long waits, with our crappy BB, I've not had any of our other PCs suffer any instability from it.

This last hang was while trying to download the latest GFX driver (over an hour on our "BB"). On reset and starting again, Edge's download window records the last attempt as "Couldn't download - Browser crashed". Note, however, that on at least one previous hang, the browser hadn't been started.

So, in summary, it becomes unresponsive but the mouse pointer still moves. And Cntrl-Alt-Del does nothing.

 

[GidRea]

Oh dear. It hangs.

All done as above. Deleted all partitions on both SSDs. Ok, I didn't delete the (single) data partition off the data HDD, but, err, that's the point of putting the data HDD in it. As discussed, it got a clean install, one user created to do so, and Windows Update allowed to run its course till happy.

And it hangs. Sort of. Mouse pointer still works, in fact it can even drag a window if it was active, but as soon as a mouse click the desktop becomes completely unresponsive apart from moving the mouse pointer. CNTRL-ALT-DEL doesn't work either.

There may be a more exact term than "hang", perhaps.

It hangs after logging on, and doing stuff, with desktop displayed, not immediately, typically it is apparently ok for 30 minutes or more. Usually I haven't done much, it's unlikely a direct response to input.

Since initial install and its shed load of Windows Update I've done very little on it as the next job is the GFX driver update from NVidia (Windows installed one over a year old, and forum's adamant getting latest is good. But I'm having problems - not only on the new PC - getting that download off my crappy broadband: That's not your problem, I'm just explaining why I haven't done much).

Actually, I have accepted the auto-nag to install ASUS's BIOS thing, but the first hang was before that. The first hang was sometime overnight when the clean installed system was left to do its Windows Updates. And it's hung when on ethernet and when not.

I don't recall it hanging when using the test install, although I'm not certain it had enough up time to compare. Probably it did.

Ran Windows Memory Diagnostic Tool - no errors.

Right now, it's just running Task Manager|Performance and an endless ping of my router and has stayed up for 3 hours. And it's not hung.

Any ideas?

 

[ubuysa]

Download Memtest, it's way better than the Windows diagnostic. You'll have to make a bootable USB stick and boot that to run Memtest. Let it complete all four iterations of the various tests - this will take many hours.

If you've clean installed Windows and you're still getting hangs then you have a hardware issue. I would reomve everything that you don't need to install Windows. Take out additional HDDs, CDROM drives, WiFi cards, remove the graphics card if the CPU has an iGPU. Disconnect all USB devices except keyboard and mouse, and connect just a single monitor. Get it back to the absolute minium hardware you can and still boot. Ideally I'd ensure that the one drive you leave in is an HDD and not an SSD, your problem could be a flaky SSD. HDDs rarely go flaky - they generally work or they don't.

Then use a different PC/laptop to download a new copy of the Windows install files (using the Media Creation Tool) to a brand new (8GB min) USB stick. The objective here is to ensure that you have a good set of installation files - you can't trust your PC to do this (it looks to have a problem) and you shouldn't trust an old USB stick.

Finally, boot that new USB stick on your troublesome PC and clean install Windows. Delete ALL partitions on the single drive (HDD) you should have in there, select the unallocated space that results and click the Next button. The installer will do the rest. Be sure to run Windows Update repeatedly after the initial Windows setup, if you are asked to reboot then run Windows Update again. Keep running WIndows Update until no more updates are found, then check in Optional Updates and install everything you find in there. Then run Windows Update again to ensure there are no new updates.

DO NOT install any other software or drivers. Test the system as much as you can with it in this pristine state, if it hangs then there is a hardware issue for sure. If it doesn't hang then you had a software issue, be sure not to reinstall that!

Note that this process is NOT about getting you a working system, it's about establishing whether you have a hardware problem.

 

[GidRea]

Thanks Ubuysa,

That sounds technically sound, good fault hunting, but I shan't rush into it as I'll have to go buy a new flash stick and a new W10 media download is an overnight, or offsite job.

I also think that, as it's a new delivery, and it didn't hang AFAIR as delivered with the test install, I should be very wary of dismantling it, ie taking off the M2 SSDs, without PCS's official (versus forum) say so. From a "contractual" PoV it would be cleaner to remove the HDD I added, returning it to bare delivered hardware, which was, after all, tested at PCS. Before being couriered ~~~~~~~~~ bump bump bump, admittedly.

The other possible suspect, I suppose, might be BIOS related. When I wanted it to boot off the W10 install media, I had to F2, blah blah, and while I didn't tadger, or even look at, anything other than the boot order, who knows. Is there some sensible way to check/verify that?

FWIW it sat happily overnight running Performance Monitor and pinging my router, though that's hardly a stress test.

I entirely accept your rationale for testing the hardware first. Somehow it feels softwarey to me, yet no additional software seems to be implicated - I'm sure at least one hang each has been before that ASUS thing nagged its way on, or before any attempt to run Edge.

(It (not new PC) has taken five attempts to download NVidia's latest onto a stick, I knew getting online in the morning before the movies and gamers was a good plan!)

Summary: Technical advice accepted, will verify commercially with PCS. Any suggestions to confirm BIOS is good? And, what's going to be the best way to soak/stress test it?

 

[ubuysa]

Summary: Technical advice accepted, will verify commercially with PCS. Any suggestions to confirm BIOS is good? And, what's going to be the best way to soak/stress test it?

PCS have an open case policy and as long as you don't damage anything your warranty will be unaffected. I quite understand that you want to confirm that with PCS though.

It's unlikely that these hangs are BIOS related, in any case the BIOS is the very last thing you update in any troubleshooting scenario and only once you have eliminated everything else.

 

[GidRea]

Thanks, sounds good.

Since I figured this install was doomed, while I'm waiting, I went ahead and put the up-to-date NVidia driver on. Still hung. Shame.

Slightly to my surprise PCS support are there at weekends (thanks guys!), but interestingly the advice there is diametrically opposite (below). I'm going to go with that, as if it is a HW problem, obviously at least part of it is going back.

PCS advice: "I think it's best to run the machine in a default format to rule out potentially bad firmware settings, to do this please use the instructions below:

- on system power on tap the DEL key to enter BIOS
- in BIOS press F5 and load optimized defaults
- press F10 to save & exit back to windows

Test the machine or further stability and report back to me ASAP."

I'll do that, perhaps there's a way to save the BIOS settings first.


Aside:
Here's a thought: I guess it could even be that all individual parts are ok, but something is an uninstallable combination (from Windows PoV). It's a pretty bog-standard build, I'd have thought. Except for fitting two SSDs, one nice one (boot), and one cheap one (for scratch). Is the specific combo unusual? And, the problem possibly only happened after I installed on the intended boot SSD:

• Test install on slow SSD - no hang, wasn't run very much
• Test install on fast SSD - no hang
• Clean install on fast SSD, but with OS-related small partitions on slow SSD, wasn't run very much
• Clean install on fast SSD, hangs
• Not conclusive, that.

 

[Martinr36]

Clean install on fast SSD, but with OS-related small partitions on slow SSD

What do you mean by this, if you'd done a proper clean install (Delete ALL partitions) then ALL the windows related partitions should be on the system (C) drive

 

[GidRea]

Hi Martin,

Following your and UBUYSA advice, on Wednesday I did a clean install onto the fast SSD. What I hadn't done was completely wipe the (I'm hazy on names) UEFI and Recovery partitions off the slow SSD. I *guess* Windows install saw those and decided not to make them on the fast SSD. So there was this strange, split install. I observed this, and asked Wednesday at 7:59 PM, and you and/or UBUYSA advised to repeat, wiping everything off both SSDs. So I did that & installed again. The funny split install was very short lived. I only listed it for completeness.

When I was initially told delete partitions, I didn't infer it applied to all drives.

And I haven't wiped the one-partition-only data HDD which was freshly formatted when I put it in (while the test installation was still running). So far (after the hangs started), I have diverted my admin users Documents/Downloads/Pictures/Videos to it, that's all that's on it. When I updated all our PCs to W10 back when, I'm sure I didn't wipe data partitions, although I appreciate as one gets more desperate.... needs must.

Right now, I've just followed PCS supports advice and reset the BIOS (with screenshot of what changed sent to them), and we'll see if that helps (half a day maybe, for first indication). After that exercise, I suspect I should remove my HDD so there's no question about either not-as-delivered or clear-every-partition-in-sight.

Sorry if some of the process looks a bit erratic, bear in mind that once an installation is pronounced doomed, I might as well try out other aspects while I'm waiting for replies or for a download or whatever. Now, off to Argos to buy that fresh flash stick. Annoying, I already have more than I need.

Attached are the BIOS reports of what F5 reset changed (I think that's what it told me). Seems to have booted ok.

Cheers, thanks for the ongoing help.
Gideon

 

[Martinr36]

Try deleting ALL partitions and clean install

 

[ubuysa]

TBH I think that if you're following the advice of PCS you should stick to it and not ask for additional or alternative help on here. It is a huge mistake to mix advice from more than one source.

I would advise others to leave your troubleshooting to PCS now. I won't offer further advice or suggestions for the reason stated above.

 

[GidRea]

Thanks guys., UBUYSA, I concur, as it's brand new I feel I should comply with PCS official line. That's in no sense a dismissal of technical value of advice here. I will however continue to post status, if that's ok.

I reset the BIOS settings around 3pm. It ran. I assigned the admin user's data off the added HDD, preparatory to removing it later, and rebooted. It then managed about 6 hours before hanging again. Interestingly, this time it hung while I was actively using it, I did a click on an Edge tab, and it totally hung - mouse won't move this time. I didn't look before, but I observe the screen (time, PerfMon) isn't updating.

I am going to power it down and disconnect the data HDD I added, returning the hardware to as-delivered. And run overnight. I wouldn't have thought though that a data HDD down a SATA should have this effect...

If I have time tonight I'll also start a media creation using old PC, onto the brand new flash stick, ready for tomorrow.

 

[GidRea]

Well, there's an early indication Martin might have a point, but it utterly beats me why

Yesterday I did a new, clean install, exactly (?) as recommended by Martin:
Change 1: I had removed my SATA HDD with its one, empty, partition.
Change 2: I purchased, downloaded to and used a brand new flash stick.
Change 3: This is the first install AFTER support's recommended BIOS reset.
Non-changes
Using install tool, both SSDs reduced to empty space (same as before).
As my usual practice, initially installed offline, then put online to activate.
Windows Update run to satisfaction, including optional.
NVidia latest Gfx driver installed (Studio, not Game).

On reboot, it has managed nearly 14 hours up so far, comfortably a record. If it continues "up", I guess after maybe a week I might feel comfortable.

But I have to say that Martin's points Changes 1 and 2 above sounded like mumbo-jumbo to me. Or at least, extreme cynicism about the install's robustness.

A key question is, Martin, does the mere presence of an uninvolved extra partition screw the install? It didn't seem to when I upgraded the family PCs W7-W10, but that's a small sample.

Or, am I to assume the HDD is actually either faulty or incompatible? Even after it was removed (post previous install) it was still hanging the PC from my box of bits. Creepy! Please note, however, this configuration was tested on Halloween.

Supernatural explanations considered, but I'd prefer a technical one.

 

[ubuysa]

A key question is, Martin, does the mere presence of an uninvolved extra partition screw the install?

It depends what sort of partition it is. If it's an EFI (boot) partition then a clean install will place the boot files in that existing EFI partition. It may be (though I don't know for sure) that if it's an MSR or Recovery partition a clean install might reuse that partition too. If the extra partition is just a data partition or if it's empty then it will have no effect on the installation at all.

 

[GidRea]

I'm pretty sure HDD was only a data partition. The drive's never been a boot disk, only local data, and I'd reformatted it (I can't remember if I even wiped it with the install tool).

And, if install had put anything important on the HDD, then I should probably have seen some difference when I booted it with the HDD removed?

The other thing that's changed is that this install was done after the BIOS reset. The reset alone didn't stop it hanging, so if that's different then the install must've done done something different by spying into the BIOS or some response from it?

(There's also the question whether the BIOs should be left as default, but let's let PCS support attend to that.)

 

[GidRea]

I have to say it's looking good. As the last days of testing didn't touch the scratch SSD I made a little batch job to fill it. That seems to be ok too. Next test would be to reinsert the HDD (which wasn't supplied by PCS).

I'm still very bemused as to why it would be different in this way.

Oooh! Rereading the fairly copious notes I took during install - another difference the first time was that I (accidentally) accepted the nag to install the Asus Armoury Crate App. And the only time I opened it, I recall I opened a menu that I thought might have offered a BIOS backup. It wanted a login, and I tried the one jotted down for my last motherboard supplier, which didn't work. When I tried something else (would have been non-tadgery), the program vanished. Didn't touch it again, and haven't installed this time. Is it a suspect?

So that's these known differences between the installs:

• "good" one put on a brand new flash stick.
• "bad" install was on BIOS with PCS settings. BIOS reset before the "good" install process.
• Blank, formatted HDD present during the "bad" install process.
• Asus Armoury Crate installed on "bad" install, shortly after creation.

I did do some googling, and hangs with mouse moving on W10 don't come up much, but there were a couple, both pointed the finger at SSD drivers, and in one case specifically a Samsung. But it was, I think, unproven. And in my case, nothing relating to SSD drivers should have changed.

 

[GidRea]

Well, just to sign off a few weeks later - no recurrence of issues, albeit usage tailed off a lot as more heavyweight tasks took over.

Thanks for all the help, and PCS support too.