Opinions, if you'd be so kind. (getting long and nerdy)

[g85]

TL;DR I know there's a lot of text (sorry, not sorry). it's my reasoning behind component choices. if you'd like to give your opinion on a certain aspect of the build, please read the relevant section first (keywords in bold). Please also feel free to read the whole thing though
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THE SHORT VERSION

Budget: flexible ~£1200 inc VAT (could go higher if absolutely necessary. wants vs needs has been a massive internal struggle, hahaa!)
Purposes: all-rounder, quiet, non-competitive gaming, entry-level video editing, entry-mid level photoshop/vectoring, mid-level audio production.

I'll probably be putting the order in in 15 - 30 days time, so stock-levels aren't relevant (yet).

current price (18th june 2020) £1,104

Case
COOLERMASTER SILENCIO S600 QUIET MID TOWER CASE
Processor (CPU)
AMD Ryzen 3 3300x Quad Core CPU (3.8GHz-4.3GHz/18MB CACHE/AM4)
Motherboard
ASUS® TUF GAMING B550-PLUS (DDR4, USB 3.2, 6Gb/s) - RGB Ready!
Memory (RAM)
16GB Corsair VENGEANCE DDR4 3600MHz (2 x 8GB)
Graphics Card
6GB NVIDIA GEFORCE GTX 1660 SUPER - HDMI, DP - GeForce GTX VR Ready!
1st M.2 SSD Drive
1TB PCS PCIe M.2 SSD (2000 MB/R, 1100 MB/W)
Power Supply
CORSAIR 750W RMx SERIES™ MODULAR 80 PLUS® GOLD, ULTRA QUIET
Power Cable
1 x 1 Metre UK Power Cable (Kettle Lead)
Processor Cooling
Noctua NH-U14S Ultra Quiet Performance CPU Cooler
Thermal Paste
ARCTIC MX-4 EXTREME THERMAL CONDUCTIVITY COMPOUND
Sound Card
ONBOARD 6 CHANNEL (5.1) HIGH DEF AUDIO (AS STANDARD)
Wireless/Wired Networking
10/100/1000 GIGABIT LAN PORT (Wi-Fi NOT INCLUDED)
USB/Thunderbolt Options
MIN. 2 x USB 3.0 & 2 x USB 2.0 PORTS @ BACK PANEL + MIN. 2 FRONT PORTS
Operating System
Windows 10 Home 64 Bit - inc. Single Licence
Operating System Language
United Kingdom - English Language
Windows Recovery Media
Windows 10 Multi-Language Recovery Image - Supplied on USB Drive
Office Software
FREE 30 Day Trial of Microsoft 365® (Operating System Required)
Anti-Virus
NO ANTI-VIRUS SOFTWARE
Browser
Google Chrome™
Warranty
3 Year Silver Warranty (1 Year Collect & Return, 1 Year Parts, 3 Year Labour)
Delivery
STANDARD INSURED DELIVERY TO UK MAINLAND (MON-FRI)
Build Time
Standard Build - Approximately 18 to 20 working days

Paired monitor: 2019 LG TV 43" 4K 60Hz with low-latency gaming mode (spec 5.6ms)
------------------------------
THE LONG VERSION

Hi there everybody!
this is my first desktop in over a decade. I've been travelling a lot between different countries, so a laptop has been essential until now where i've settled back in the UK. I discovered PCS back in 2014ish when i couldn't find a decent laptop with two 2.5" bays that didn't have stupid lamborghini grills with OTT RGB, and PCS were the only UK-based company that did "custom" (i.e. Clevo) laptop systems at the time. was very happy with my sensible looking cosmos III (intel 4710MQ, gtx 950m, 16GB ram, 480GB hyperX, 1TB HDD)

while i would feel absolutely comfortable building my own system (i've completely disassembled and reassembled the laptop several times), i've decided to go with PCS again for my desktop for two main reasons: 1) the price isn't too different from self building. some components like the case are cheaper than anywhere else i could find (i assume because that side of the market doesn't change much so they can bulk buy a lot), which makes up for some of the components where they add on a few £s 2) their customer service has been really great with my laptop. 9 times out of 10 when i called them i spoke to someone more knowledgeable than me. I consider myself a relatively knowledgeable tinkerer (you can be the judge of that reading further, ha!) and i've been keeping up to date over the years with various tech-specific youtube channels (linus tech tips, paul's hardware, jayztwocents, bitwit etc) just because i find PC hardware interesting, so finding a company with really skilled staff impressed me. my laptop has died twice on me over the last 6 years, and both times i've found PCS great to deal with.

it's time for a full upgrade though, and i want to go desktop for the main reasons of upgradeability, noise, ease of troubleshooting, airflow and temps, and not having to replace the entire motherboard (along with cpu/gpu) everytime a single component goes up the swanny.

Here's the essentials of what i want out of my system, it's purpose, specific programs i frequently use etc.:

Quiet as possible - I'd like it to be absolutely silent from 1m away when idle, and the quieter under stress the better. I do use a computer 6-12 hours day, so minimising noise is kind of essential to my sanity. a bit of whirr while gaming/rendering is acceptable, but otherwise silence is the goal.

It's mostly for personal use (gaming, music composition & production, browsing, video streaming etc), but i will be doing a bit of work related things on it also (DAWs, photoshop & vectoring, website design & coding, but potentially some light video editing (1080p) and maybe a bit of CAD if i can ever afford a CNC) I'm self-employed and work from home (I build and repair musical instruments - so it's mostly designing promotional material and all the boring stuff like accounts, but you can see why i might be interested in starting a youtube channel or getting in to some higher volume production stuff with a CNC - but all my instruments are hand-built from scratch for the foreseeable future, so admittedly the CAD is a bit of a pipedream). It'll be sat under my TV (43" 4K 60Hz with low latency gaming mode (5.6ms) - i sit about 2-2.5m (7ft) away on a sofa). While I'd love to separate it in to two systems (one for work, one for me) that's just not financially sensible (possible, but not sensible) at the moment. TANGENT: at some point over the years, as i upgrade this system, i may well use the old parts to build a second computer for this very reason - have a desk with 27" monitor or something so it feels like i'm working and not just lounging).

games: RTS (they are billions), puzzle (portal 2), racing (wreckfest), story-driven (telltale (RIP), batman arkham series etc.) and Kerbal Space Program (what genre is that? ha!) - also KSP2 when that's released. That's far from an exhaustive list, but should give you a decent idea of the type of games i like to play. I'm not really in to first person shooters or competitive gaming, so i'm not looking for ultimate refresh rates or frames per second, rather a solid above-60fps-1080/1440p-for-anything machine (obviously my screen is 60Hz, so if i can get a never-dip-below-60 i'll be happy). - more on this in the GPU section below

programs: currently Ableton and other DAWs/mastering suites, GiMP, inkscape, VLC, chrome etc. - in the future though maybe something like davinci resolve? haven't decided on which exact software yet, but some kind of free video suite.

anyway, on to component breakdown in part 2! (yes, it forced me to split it in 2 parts because it's over 10,000 characters, ha!)

 

[g85]

PART 2
Case
Coolermaster s600.
Aesthetically the most pleasing to me. weird, i know, but i dislike RGB and windowed panels. in fact, the closer to the monolith from 2001 space odyssey, the better (that is to say, a plain black box). You could probably convince me to switch to the fractal define 7 if you make a good argument for airflow:noise ratio and extra modularity (i've not seen a direct comparison between the two on the interwebs), but i prefer the aesthetics of the cheaper coolermaster. Anybody out there with direct experience of both these cases? I also like that both of these have acoustic dampening with a front panel door if i do need extra airflow.

Processor (CPU)
AMD Ryzen 3 3300x
I'm told via various reliable sources "this is all you really need for gaming", though i've been flicking between this and the 3600 (non-X). my future video editing needs will probably be pretty minimal, and occasional, but anything to speed up rendering music and video would be nice (but not essential - it's not the focus of my business, therefore a luxury).

Sidenote: I've been an intel user up until now, but the reason for swapping teams should be relatively obvious in 2020, no?

Motherboard
ASUS® TUF GAMING B550-PLUS
I've been holding out for the b550's. I had considered the x570 (and also the b450, but i doubt any of you would recommend that route now). Honestly, the thing that swung it for me was the passive heatsinks on the chipset. little fans get noisy quickly (especially with age). I also don't really need the full PCI-e 4 across the whole board.

Memory (RAM)
16GB DDR4 3600MHz (2 x 8GB)
Various reliable sources have told me you don't get any benefit from more than 16GB RAM with gaming and that ryzen 2 (i.e. 3000 series) is designed for 3600MHz (with the XMP enabled and fabric clock set to 1800 - side note: I can't remember what the AMD equivalent of XMP is called off the top of my head. you know what i mean though).

However, some of you may be saying "you'll want more than that, especially with the video and music software" and i completely agree. a 4x8GB or 2x16GB in the 3600MHz variant is not an option on the configurator, though i will ask PCS on the phone, as i'm told by a fellow forum member that they can be a quite flexible. otherwise it's a fairly easy self-upgrade if i find 16GB to be lacking - which i probably will just given the way that i browse chrome with a hundred+ tabs.

Graphics Card
6GB NVIDIA GEFORCE GTX 1660 SUPER
Honestly I'm not sure - anything between a 1650 super and a 1660Ti, really. There are no game titles with RTX that i'm really interested in, so that seems like a bit of a waste, and while getting 4K gaming above 60Hz would technically be possible with something like a 2070s - 2080Ti, i'm not really sure it's worth the investment. If a title comes out that i'm dying to play with RTX I'd consider it. but not just yet. maybe the next gen ampere (announced recently)? maybe if i invested in VR somewhere down the line? maybe if kerbal space program 2 announces RTX support? that's a lot of maybes. Solid 60+ Hz on any title and adjusting the resolution to suit is all i really need for now (i think).

If anyone out there wants to help me nail down exactly which GPU i should get, please feel free, though generalised statements such as "you should be spending around 1/3rd of your budget" or "get the best you can afford" are a bit meh, and i've heard them all before. get specific with reasoning though and i'll give you a gold star for effort.

sidenote: I'm aware of the RTX noise-cancelling tech, and as an audio nerd, yes, i find this very interesting. but it does work on non-RTX cards (albeit with a performance drop while gaming), and as an audio nerd who doesn't game-stream, i'd only really be interested in using it in cleaning up old recordings and so forth (i.e. not gaming at the same time)

extra sidenote: unlike the switch in my CPU loyalties, i'm staying firmly team green here. because drivers.

1st M.2 SSD Drive
1TB PCS PCIe M.2 SSD
I'll be populating the system with old drives for the expanded storage. pretty sure all i need for now is a main drive with enough capacity for OS/progs/games and a spare 20%. The reason i chose M.2 is mostly for system neatness and the price difference between that and a 1TB 2.5" SSD is fairly minimal. You might be able to convince me that the £30 is spent better elsewhere, but as far as i'm aware nobody is going to try to convince me to spend the extra £100+ on the equivalent capacity evo 970 or firecuda. see the summary at the end for more about why i'm not upgrading my archive storage.

Power Supply
CORSAIR 750W RMx
"you don't need that many watts" many of you might say, and you'd be right. except that i'm trying to build as-near-as-dammit silent machine. the fan on this system doesn't start until you give it over 350W (if memory serves). i looked at efficiency curves for the different wattages in the corsair manuals, and figured this would be a good minimum. I'd also like fully modular - I know it's not a need, it's a want, but hey.

the 750 RM(non-x) is an option that has popped up in the last few days and i could save myself £3 (whoop-de-doo!) i hear the difference is mainly in the capacitors. anybody want to convince me upwards to an 850/1000W? 10yr warranty on these badboys mean it should last me beyond several generations of upgrades.

Processor Cooling
Noctua NH-U14S Ultra Quiet Performance CPU Cooler
Probably not entirely necessary, as i'm not particularly looking to overclock to the max (some light overclocking, maybe, but i'd prefer longevity and stability), but i hear great things about noctua in general, especially build quality and noise. anybody with experience of the PCS frostflow 100 v2 might be able to convince me to save myself £42 here. some of you might even say "if you're not overclocking much, just go with the stock cooler", and you'd probably be right. In 3+ years when a CPU upgrade might make more financial sense, i could well be sticking an enthusiast-tier ryzen 4000 (or 5000 if compatibility continues) in there.

sidenote: water vs air: personal preference here, but i don't want an AIO that'll need replacing in 2-3 years. also general paranoia of leaks (which may be unfounded, but for ease-of-mind i just don't want to think about it). also, is pump noise still a thing these days?

Thermal Paste
ARCTIC MX-4
I actually have an entire tube of mx-4 here (£5 off amazon). and i could take the cooler off, wipe it down with isopropyl alcohol, reapply a small pea's worth, and screw it back in. but you know what? i can't be bothered, just have £9 (grumble grumble). Also, I've read the warranty t&c's and this is a bit of a grey area - seems like they might allow a self re-paste, but i'll have to specifically ask.

(yes, i read that post by spydertracks that said i should probably re-apply every 12 months anyway, but i'm not doing any significant overclocking).

Wireless/Wired Networking
10/100/1000 GIGABIT LAN PORT (Wi-Fi NOT INCLUDED)
It's going to be sat right next to my router with ethernet plugged in, and i have no plans in the foreseeable future to be moving it around.

Extra Case Fans
(NONE)
what i really want here is 140mm noctua fans, though unfortunately PCS only offer 120mm and the branded ones are all RGB (if you haven't read the whole thing, and i don't blame you, i dislike RGB). I'd settle for 120mm noctuas or 140mm RGB corsairs (and just turn the RGB off), but i feel it a waste of money to be making two compromises. unless PCS will accommodate getting 140mm noctuas ordered in specifically for this build (i'll ask), i'm just going to buy separately and populate the case myself.

probably 2x140mm in the front and 1x140mm in the back for positive air-pressure. maybe one more on the cooler in a push-pull config? diminishing returns at that point i feel.

Warranty
3 Year Silver Warranty
£5? yeah, why not?

So, in summary, i think i've got myself a relatively balanced system that just about covers my needs without going overboard with luxuries - i could, if i really wanted, spend £3,500 on a fully decked out mofo, with enthusiast grade hardware, but law of diminishing returns and an eye on the bank account makes me want to be a bit more sensible. One thing i kind of wanted to do is transfer my entire archive over to dual high-capacity SSDs in RAID 1, giving me superfast access to my archive with the peace of mind that if a drive dies i don't lose any data. but starting at ~£400 for two 2TB (which would be the minimum i'd need, capacity-wise), is that really justifiable? I'd save myself a few seconds a day in indexing times, and maybe 5 minutes a week in manually updating the back-up drive. Borderline justifiable. i'll think about it, maybe as a future upgrade.

As per the title, opinions are all welcome, and where you can, please back them up with objective facts. If you've read the whole thing, bloody nora, well done. gold star for you. sorry, not sorry for waffling on. i am, however, genuinely sorry for my terrible inconsistencies with capitalising letters. mixing I and i in the same sentence. for shame. i can't be bothered to go through and sort it all out though.

thank you for reading

g85

 

[Scott]

The S600 is a very poor case for airflow and temps. To that end, you'll have the fans working harder to keep it cool internally (noise). The Define 7 is far and away the choice to make for silence AND decent performance.

The 3300X is a perfect choice for gaming, it's a very poor choice for everything else. You would actually want the 3800X, and skip the 3600 entirely, for your core processing uses.

B550 is the sensible choice now, no doubt. Only reason to consider the X570 now is when you are considering upgrading to one of the heavy core CPUs in the future. The VRMs will make a difference here.

RAM - 3200 would be absolutely fine for your uses but 3600 is just gravy. The budget isn't there for 32GB anyway, with a decent supporting system, so I wouldn't worry about it too much. You want to limit yourself to 2 sticks where possible (fill the channel, minimise the slots).

GPU - The 1660 Super isn't going to drive 4k at anywhere near 60hz so you're going to have to down-size. 1080p scales OK on a 4k panel so this should have you covered nicely. The Ti is the old card and best avoided. With video editing, photoshop and any other software the RTX cores and additional CUDA cores of the 2060 would have a significant impact. Makes for more budget though.

Storage - For me the best option for a gaming system is a 500GB primary drive and a 1TB game drive, both M2. Budget needs to be there for this sort of splurge though, as it's not a necessity. Having all the games on one drive means that when you want to format the primary drive, you don't need to be moving/reinstalling games. Always costs on the writes of the drive too (which are finite)

PSU - RM/RMx is what you want. Minimal power/cost option. No issues with the RM model at all, don't get caught up in it too much.

Cooling - You want a H100i RGB platinum with the 3800X. For the 3600 and below the stock cooler is fine. I know you have fears about watercooling but they are unfounded...... even what you have read I bet is hearsay. Changing every 2-3 years is also Chinese whispers. I've had a low end H55i cooler on my system for 9 years and my Dad now has it on his with no issues. I have the H115i RGB platinum and it's silent thanks to the ML fans. The Noctua will do a fine job for any CPU but it's pricey now for what it is, it's also big and heavy and during heavy use it circulates hot air around the case rather than expelling it. Air coolers have had their day but if you are insistent....... Noctua is definitely the way to go.

Thermal paste - Ditch it. Especially if you do end up opting for one of the Corsair coolers as they come with excellent paste. In my experience PCS paste jobs leave a lot to be desired as well so best to use the pre-applied stuff and leave it till you need to change it out yourself. I changed mine and even de-lidded my CPU, CPU warranty was obviously gone but PCS were fine with the rest of the system.

Case fans - Don't bother. With a decent case they aren't necessary as the case is already well balanced. Coupling in an AIO just adds to the air-flow and leaves even less need for more fans. Best to have a look at this yourself to determine your needs once you see the lay of the land in your system (you want a slightly positive pressure during normal use).


TDLR;

Your budget isn't right for what you want to achieve with aplomb. Of course you can purchase whatever you wish at whichever budget you wish, but taking all this time to write out a couple of posts shows how much thought you have put into this and the conclusions of the parts are a little strange to me.

You would get FAR longer use out of a 3800x paired with a 2060 (non-super is fine) and 32GB of 3200mhz RAM. Your ceiling of £1200 isn't close to allowing for this sort of system in an optimised silent base.

 

[keithbeaks]

These forums are like going to school everyday but better!! I learned more from that post than hours of reading online.

 

[g85]

Thanks for your input Scott! and thanks for reading the whole thing (at least skimming it, ha!)

As I said, the budget is kind of arbitrary, i feel comfortable spending ~1200, but could go higher, trying not to burn a hole in the pocket, but i guess the actual ceiling would be, i dunno, 1500 or 1600 before i feel less comfortable. Like i said, it is within my means to be able to spend £3500, i just don't want to! i've read a few of these check my spec threads before posting, and pretty much all of the responses are "what's your budget, what monitor are you pairing it with, what's the purpose of the system?" i just wanted to stick a ballpark in there so i wouldn't get complaints, haha!

i am tempted by the fractal, i must admit. it's got great reviews.

my previous laptop, i honestly had little to no complaints about the CPU aside from the temps (and subsequently the noise). maybe the extra cores on the 3800X will help with the video editing etc, but it was implied that it's casual video editing, perhaps i should have been clearer. i'm not video editing all day every day, and the kind of videos i'd make won't need tons of effects etc. for clarity video editing is not a deal breaker, it's something to think about now i have the capability. It is within my means to up to a 3800X and it's something i will definitely consider.

RAM - the budget is there, the option on the configurator is not. I've also heard that 3200Mhz is a sweet spot on price-performance, so i completely agree with your analysis. the bump in price between 3200 and 3600 doesn't really concern me though, maybe i'll change my mind. maybe i won't (respectfully)

GPU - it's implied that i don't expect a gtx to be pulling 4K. solid 60 at 1080p or 1440p depending on the game is what i'm after. the TV is 4K because that's what you get when you buy a tv in 2019 P.S. this response in particular is why i accuse you of skim reading

storage - interesting. i absolutely take on your point about the two separate drives being easier with re-installs, great shout. I've also read that game load times are faster if they're on the same drive though? could be wrong (probably am), i could just be saving myself a few milliseconds in load times even if it is true, given the speed of storage these days.

cooling - i'm afraid i might have to be insistent i know pretty much all of the youtube channels i referred are all "watercool-all-the-things!", and they've been trying to influence me to go watercooling for the last 4 years or so, and they haven't convinced me yet, ha! I think what it comes down to is that an aircooler will last you as long as it fits on the socket, and the fan is a cheap component to replace if it fails. AIO gets blocked up or springs a leak and you throw it in the bin (along with any dripped on components). AIOs have been getting better in the last few years though (at least the marketing would have you believe)... i take your point, especially with the advised 3800X, still (respectfully) going with aircooling though. I'm a stringed instrument repair guy, and i believe in repairability. Ikea be damned!

thermal paste - you're probably right, also £9 is quite the premium for what is essentially about 30p worth of paste. would you still recommend standard paste with the noctua out of interest? (hypothetically if i couldn't re-paste myself)

fans - again, you're probably right. especially if i go with the fractal. need to look up how many fans it comes with though.

interesting conclusion, and i appreciate your considered and thoughtful response. your proposed changes bring it up to £1,550 (with the noctua, not the AIO). which is doable, i may end up scaling back the CPU and meeting in the middle though. the higher end CPU you go the toastier your machine gets. at the end of the day, it's about guessing the balance between noise and performance (and price and all the rest of it), and hoping that you did a good job at the end of it.

and you're right, i have put a fair bit of thought and research in to it. thanks for noticing

regards,
g85

 

[Scott]

I didn't skim read at all, I took on board everything you said. Regarding the 4k TV, my point was more regarding the down-scaling on a TV I presumed it was something you hadn't considered so added in the caveat about running in 4k.... it's not going to be ideal. It's not going to run 4k for anything even remotely demanding, running 1080p on a 4k screen will look a little off, almost like a hue or fuzz to it. 1440p looks even worse. It depends on the games of course, and the system will happily do just about everything on the 4k screen as it is other than gaming.

I would consider the frequency of the 3800X, it's a more well rounded processing point where the money is available. If I was building myself a system right now it would be at least a 3800X, more likely a 3900X. I'm a hobbyist everything though, I play with everything. For a nice experience I like to be covered for just about every scenario, hence at the time I went for the 9900k (8c16t)

With the M2, games will load faster on their own drive, not sure why anyone would say otherwise. The secondary drive would have it's own I/O channel. M2 is significantly faster with some games, others it doesn't make so much odds. There's little in it money wise so the benefits outweigh the cost difference IMO. There are zero downsides.

With the cooler, as stated, it's entirely up to you. There aren't any of the issues you speak of for the AIOs nowadays, when the right brands/designs are bought of course. I've been an AIO user, as I said, for around 12 years now and I'll never go back. The benefits FAR out weigh the down sides. The AIO will last as long as it fits the socket. The only difference with an AIO is that it has a pump as well as the fans. The fans have exactly the same likelihood of failing as they are exactly the same. The pump is the only other failure point, hence why manufacturer choice is important. H100i RGB & the H115i RGB are the cream of the crop. Nothing touches them, stick them in and forget about it for the life of the system (and more, I always transfer my cooling with me from system to system).

 

[Scott]

This is everything exactly how I would recommend it for you. Some minimal notes that aren't covered above:

RAM - for hobbyist, and even at medium levels, 16GB is fine. Especially with it being so quick. It'll cover all your needs. If you get to the point where you need to expand your uses, you can expand the RAM.
2060 - Will help with all aspects of creation that uses the GPU (photo editing, video editing) not to mention smashing gaming out the park for you. It's overkill for the gaming aspect but will be more likely to happily run 4k on lesser spec games.
Storage - Just as I explained. Second drive for games/cache. Makes a big difference IMO.
RM PSU - Excellent PSU, almost as good as the RMx without the delay
Cooler - My thoughts will never change on this

Feel free to chop and change as you see fit, this is just how I would personally recommend the build for your uses

Case
FRACTAL DEFINE 7 BLACK QUIET MID-TOWER CASE
Processor (CPU)
AMD Ryzen 7 3800X Eight Core CPU (3.9GHz-4.5GHz/36MB CACHE/AM4)
Motherboard
ASUS® TUF GAMING B550-PLUS (DDR4, USB 3.2, 6Gb/s) - RGB Ready!
Memory (RAM)
16GB Corsair VENGEANCE DDR4 3600MHz (2 x 8GB)
Graphics Card
6GB NVIDIA GEFORCE RTX 2060 - HDMI, DP - VR Ready!
1st M.2 SSD Drive
512GB PCS PCIe M.2 SSD (2000 MB/R, 1100 MB/W)
2nd M.2 SSD Drive
1TB PCS PCIe M.2 SSD (2000 MB/R, 1100 MB/W)
Power Supply
CORSAIR 750W RM SERIES™ MODULAR 80 PLUS® GOLD, ULTRA QUIET
Power Cable
1 x 1 Metre UK Power Cable (Kettle Lead)
Processor Cooling
Corsair H115i RGB PLATINUM Hydro Series High Performance CPU Cooler
Thermal Paste
STANDARD THERMAL PASTE FOR SUFFICIENT COOLING
Sound Card
ONBOARD 6 CHANNEL (5.1) HIGH DEF AUDIO (AS STANDARD)
Wireless/Wired Networking
10/100/1000 GIGABIT LAN PORT (Wi-Fi NOT INCLUDED)
USB/Thunderbolt Options
MIN. 2 x USB 3.0 & 2 x USB 2.0 PORTS @ BACK PANEL + MIN. 2 FRONT PORTS
Operating System
Windows 10 Home 64 Bit - inc. Single Licence [KUK-00001]
Operating System Language
United Kingdom - English Language
Windows Recovery Media
Windows 10 Multi-Language Recovery Image - Unlimited Downloads from Online Account
Office Software
FREE 30 Day Trial of Microsoft 365® (Operating System Required)
Anti-Virus
NO ANTI-VIRUS SOFTWARE
Browser
Firefox™
Warranty
3 Year Silver Warranty (1 Year Collect & Return, 1 Year Parts, 3 Year Labour)
Delivery
TIMED DELIVERY TO UK MAINLAND - MON-FRI (BEFORE 2PM)
Build Time
Standard Build - Approximately 18 to 20 working days
Price: £1,594.00 including VAT and Delivery

Unique URL to re-configure: https://www.pcspecialist.co.uk/saved-configurations/amd-am4-gen3-pc/Wu3BFKyEw8/

 

[g85]

thanks again @Scott!

my accusations of skim reading were a little tongue-in-cheek, i hope that came across

i've adjusted my build for 2 x 512GB PCS M.2s, i'm used to having a single 480GB SSD for OS/progs/games, so i'm fairly confident over double that capacity will do me for the foreseeable. also, i have a pretty sweet hyperoptic fibre connection, so a typical game will take ~15min to download. i don't need 100 games pre-installed and ready to go at a moment's notice. there's probably 10-15 games i would never want to uninstall, and the rest can come and go.

still debating with myself over the cpu/gpu. i'm waiting 2-4 weeks before i place the order, so i've plenty of time to change my mind. at the moment i have the 3600(non-x) paired with the 1660 super.

RAM - agreed

cooling - well aren't the both of us stubborn ol' b4st4rds? haha!
honestly, if i were building this myself, i'd go for the biggest baddest noctua cooler (nhd15 off the top of my head? dual tower, double or triple fan variants). i totally get why PCS aren't offering it (clashes with RAM on some mobos, but not others, can interfere with a particularly thick gpu backplate etc. would be a nightmare for compatibility when you're trying to sell multiple cases/mobos/gpus). but yeah, that was my original thought - a big ol' air cooler that could comfortably handle an enthusiast grade chip - and the nhu14s is the closest they stock.

i had also considered ordering it with stock cooler and upgrading to the bigboy myself, but then i might be forced to swap in low-profile memory etc, and i'm guessing since they're a system builder they're not going to sell you a system without RAM (assumption), or they might get grumpy if i return the RAM within 30 days? idk.

the build is already full of so many compromises for me, i've literally done a hundred+ different variations on the configurator in the last few weeks - undoubtedly your exact spec (minus the AIO) was on my screen a week or so ago - cross checking with manuals, amazon, scan, overclockers etc. decisions, decisions...

in general, trying to be sensible with my money, ryzen 4000 and RTX 3000 are supposed to be here by the end of the year (not that i'll be instantly upgrading of course, but something to think about). by the time i feel an upgrade is necessary, we'll probably be on ryzen 5000, and fingers crossed the b550 will support that too, though i'm not holding my breath. rumours have it that RTX 3000 will support 4k gaming at comfortable frame rates, but i left that kind of conjecture out my my original post (believe it or not) for brevity. haha.

regards,
g85

 

[Scott]

Just be mindful of the weight of those big coolers hanging off the motherboard. It's just a circuit board after all. Of course they have the spreader plate at the back, but even so...... they can cause a premature end to solder joints and even worse in some cases. I'm always wary of such large items in cases taking up all the space (not good for airflow).

They remind me of having fans in houses..... all a fan does is actually blow the air around the room and actually raise the temperature of the room due to the actual fan heating up. It doesn't make thermodynamic sense to operate in this way nowadays.

You'll probably be fine with your storage selection. My normal recommendation is based on more modern games where the installs will hit 80+GB each now. The downloading and re-installing is one of the negatives that I was alluding to earlier..... each drive only has so many writes. Cheaper drives have less writes than more premium drives, hence the premium drives last longer. I don't know what the life expectancy of the PCS drive is, as I don't know the actual model used, but I know that the 660p is a known ropey one (around half the life expectancy of a 970 Evo). Just something to be mindful of. I don't think reads affect the longevity, but continually downloading and installing the same games multiple times certainly will.

 

[Grinty]

Just wanted to say this thread is 100% solid gold - fantastic amount of detail on the intended use of the system, and really good explanations of why people are choosing the components they recommend!

 

[g85]

@Scott Oh, i totally forgot to mention that the case will be on its side (mobo down, cooler up), so mounting pressure won't be an issue. again, left out for brevity.

may i also take umbridge with your house fan analogy? there's no intake and exhaust in that system. that would be more akin if you duct-taped all the holes shut!

regards
g85

 

[Scott]

@Scott Oh, i totally forgot to mention that the case will be on its side (mobo down, cooler up), so mounting pressure won't be an issue. again, left out for brevity.

may i also take umbridge with your house fan analogy? there's no intake and exhaust in that system. that would be more akin if you duct-taped all the holes shut!

regards
g85

I wouldn't fancy a define 7 on its side to be honest. Fair enough on that though, will help with the PSU cooling too.

My windows are all open and so are the doors when the fan is going, there's adequate airflow but it does hee haw for the temps. Love a bit of wind chill though, at least short term

My point is that an AIO is effectively an extractor fan, taking hot air OUT of the case, rather than just blowing it about (or cool air in if you would prefer). It's an active positive influence in lowering the temperatures. If noise is at the forefront of consideration, you would put the AIO rad to the front to draw air into the case, with extractor fans taking the hot air out. Only the GPU fan would be blowing air around the case (you could get a GPU with AIO on it, even better again).

With 2 fans blowing air around the case and a heatsink heating up to 80 degrees you are going to get to a point where heat soak becomes an issue. How much of an issue depends on how important the boost clocks are and the longevity of the components are.

A noctua aint gonna fry no chips though, so you're likely fine either way. The AIO is just better..... that's all.

 

[g85]

@Scott "better" is subjective

I'll also note that there is a distinct direction to the airflow, it's not all just getting bandied about the case (except the GPU with non rear exhaust... i kind of wish that the nvidia cards PCS sold were the founder's editions and not the palit/zotac variants, as i have learned reading this forum.) the cooler fan points directly at the rear exhaust.

as far as i'm aware putting the case on it's side will make minimal difference, as there's no air intakes on the back cable management side. i kinda miss the old days when the majority of cases were designed to be on their side - but that's not the reason i'm going for it. it's simply practical, it'll be sat under my TV on the console cabinet and if i put it upright it'll partially block the screen! i could have it upright, on the floor and to the side of the cabinet i suppose, but having a cat means on the floor suckin' up all dat cat hair.

g85

 

[Scott]

"Better" is measured in my assertion, nothing to do with a better fit.... it's a hugely more efficient cooler no matter which way you slice it. The only time an air cooler is more efficient is after boot up/switch on as the passive cooling of a hunking great chunk of alloy hanging off the die is far better than a wee pump of water on idle. When the heat soak kicks in on the attached metal is where it falls off that cliff. As a side note, I've been surprised for years that we didn't go down the laptop design, have a CPU cooler supplied with the case, where the heatsink is attached to the case and copper pipes join it to the plate. That way you could have an AIO water style cooler without the water. Would be pricy though as it would need to be solid to be effective.

We are going round in circles though so there's no point in flogging a dead horse. When it comes to the 3800X (and below) it's going to make no odds other than in extreme use scenario where the boost clocks will drop..... nothing will be in physical danger or anything, it'll just drop the clocks to maintain good temps.

Putting the case on its side will have no bearing. It'll be absolutely fine..... it's just a big beastie on its side. I had mine on its side while I was building/testing it. It's not small

WRT the cats, the filter system on the entire case is absolutely fantastic. A cleaning schedule would see it optimal regardless of exposure to the feline castings.

 

[g85]

water also has a heat soak point. jus' sayin'. if your water's 65C, it's not going to be very efficient cooling your 70-odd C die.

we could talk about the pros and cons of each all day, and neither of us would be wrong. but i still disagree with your "better is measured". it's like saying "this BMW M3 is way better than a Tesla, it corners better, and you don't have to wait overnight to fill up the tank." it's not objectively better, it's just different. oranges vs rib-eye, led zeppelin vs miles davis, dry martini vs mojito. they all come under the same umbrella, they serve the same function, but they do it in a completely different way.

 

[Scott]

water also has a heat soak point. jus' sayin'. if your water's 65C, it's not going to be very efficient cooling your 70-odd C die.

we could talk about the pros and cons of each all day, and neither of us would be wrong. but i still disagree with your "better is measured". it's like saying "this BMW M3 is way better than a Tesla, it corners better, and you don't have to wait overnight to fill up the tank." it's not objectively better, it's just different. oranges vs rib-eye, led zeppelin vs miles davis, dry martini vs mojito. they all come under the same umbrella, they serve the same function, but they do it in a completely different way.

You're looking rather foolish with these statements to be honest. I would rather just leave you to it now as there is no point contesting such "logic". Best of luck with your build. I'm sure it will be fantastic regardless

 

[g85]

foolish? "logic"? harsh.

i'm done for the night. i enjoyed our back and forths though, and once again would like to thank you for your input. i might be in and out over the coming weeks, i'll be harvesting more wisdom from other threads until i pull the trigger (though i think you've made it clear perhaps my participation on other people's threads should be kept to a minimum - i'll save myself the embarrassment of replying to you on the other thread).

gg.

humbly,
g85

 

[Scott]

*Sigh*

I know I'm probably going to regret this but I don't want to appear harsh so I'll explain my shortness. I'm at the point now where I feel like no matter what I put forth in a logical way (even anecdotally) it's going to be misinterpreted or misunderstood. Now, I don't want to sound magnanimous at all, it's not in my nature, but I do have some field work and background in the things that I talk about (thermodynamics, engineering, etc). To go around the points immediately in question:

Water has a soak point - yes it does, but with the radiator cooling it as a heat exchange and 2 hunking great 140mm fans attached to said radiator it tends not to soak. It's also not just water, it's an ethylene glycol mix including various anti-corrosion additions. Now, that's not to say that it won't heat soak.... of course it will, but it will saturate at a FAR higher TDP level than an internal heat exchange will. If you actually look at old server systems years ago their heat exchanges were mostly external big hunking great chunks of metal that passively cooled the chip. Then fans were added to the cabinet to cool entire servers at a time. Digressing though....... heat exchange works better with an external exchange.... an internal exchange just moves the heat around (hence why airflow is soooooooo important with non AIO coolers, including GPUs)

So..... if you read into all of the above, take me at my word (or look it up).... you will come to understand that an external radiator with built in fan expelling air in either direction through the radiator (cool into the rad, or expelling heat out of the rad) will lead to a cooler internal case temperature. A cooler internal case temperature leads to cooler internal components, including the GPU. The cooler everything runs the better it runs.

Decent AIO = better at maintaining a cooler internal temperature with all other aspects remaining equal

Next up is the CPU itself. The cooler internal case temperature means that no matter which direction the air is flowing through the radiator (in or out) the air flowing through it is cooler than it would be if it was internal. The efficiency of the water transfer from the CPU is higher than air filled copper piping (Much higher btw), this means that at full chat the AIO will dissipate heat at a more effective rate than any air cooler.

Decent AIO = better at maintaining lower maximum operating temp for any given scenario

The option for surface area for the radiator is only limited by the size of the case. In this described instance a 280mm AIO is a massive surface area to expel air through. This means that the fans can actually run MUCH slower to achieve very good levels of cooling. You need to go to extreme levels to push the fans to their need for extreme profile (9900k). With the 3800X I would be surprised if you needed to go past quiet.

Decent AIO = quieter at maximum cooling requirement

Where an air cooler will always win is the drop temperature of the system. When the system is first switched on, it will take longer for heatsoak to arrive through the entire air cooler. The exchange from copper to copper is better than the water transfer will be. Additionally, the AIO won't even bother getting started until the temps hit operating temperature. So, at the moment of inception, and for a decent period after, air coolers are absolutely fantastic at what they do. It's only when they saturate that they start to fall down. One way to combat this is to leave the side off the case..... which you may actually be able to do in your use case.

Decent Air Cooler = Better at short term, initial cooling and will likely deal with burst jumps in temps better than an AIO. AIOs are definitely slower to react as it needs a calculation and effort from the pump.

Taking away the often feared build quality of the AIOs, and I will say there have been issues in the past with certain brands/models, a GOOD AIO will knock an air cooler out the park. The H80i is the equivalent of the "best" Noctua nowadays. By best I mean the best model that isn't like hanging a bridge off the board (the extreme one is silly IMO). The extreme one is more than covered by the H100x and all but left in the dust by the H100i, before we even get to the H115i. They just aren't comparable IMO. For the 3800X, air is more than fine..... it's just not the best.

Lastly, participation in other peoples threads is more than welcomed. Coming across argumentative and a little persnickety in some instances isn't helpful to the OPs so is best kept for fun threads that are yours, like this one

 

[Grinty]

Next up is the CPU itself. The cooler internal case temperature means that no matter which direction the air is flowing through the radiator (in or out) the air flowing through it is cooler than it would be if it was internal. The efficiency of the water transfer from the CPU is higher than air filled copper piping (Much higher btw), this means that at full chat the AIO will dissipate heat at a more effective rate than any air cooler.

Apologies for sniping here, but I thought the copper pipes in conventional CPU coolers were filled with a liquid with a vapour point around the target operating temperature of the CPU, not just air. If so then they will move heat with astonishing efficiency (measured in Watts/Centigrade rather than the other way around) as the liquid turns to vapour at the CPU end and condenses at the radiator end. That would be a staggeringly obvious trick for the designers to have missed.

I admit I've got no idea how this stacks up against the pumped liquid in an AIO unit. I suppose I'd expect the AIO to work better at temperature extremes, but you're probably not worried about your CPU temperature if it's below the vapour point and if your radiator is so hot that it doesn't condense then you have some pretty serious issues.

Totally agree with your point that exhausting the hot air out of the case is much better than recirculating it though!

 

[Scott]

Apologies for sniping here, but I thought the copper pipes in conventional CPU coolers were filled with a liquid with a vapour point around the target operating temperature of the CPU, not just air. If so then they will move heat with astonishing efficiency (measured in Watts/Centigrade rather than the other way around) as the liquid turns to vapour at the CPU end and condenses at the radiator end. That would be a staggeringly obvious trick for the designers to have missed.

I admit I've got no idea how this stacks up against the pumped liquid in an AIO unit. I suppose I'd expect the AIO to work better at temperature extremes, but you're probably not worried about your CPU temperature if it's below the vapour point and if your radiator is so hot that it doesn't condense then you have some pretty serious issues.

Totally agree with your point that exhausting the hot air out of the case is much better than recirculating it though!

You could be right, I would be really surprised though. I can't contest the point but what I will say is that it would be far more efficient to use copper than anything else. The reason for the copper pipes being hollow is actually for cost. To follow this trend, anything inside the hollow pipe would have to be plain air or water. Any gas would be a good substitute for air but I'm not sure of any that conduct heat particularly well. If there was a liquid that conducted heat better than water that weighed less than water then my guess is that it would be in all AIOs too.

Depending on the cooler, my guess is it's either plain old air or water. Anything fancier would be a waste of.... well, something..... there would be a trade off somewhere.

The target operating temperature varies so much across different brands and models of CPU that I think it would be almost impossible to have a middle ground. That and the fact that a vapour is less conductive than a liquid (which is less conductive than a solid) seems counter intuitive to me. Granted, I've only ever worked on liquid cooling systems....... if vapour was better I think engines would utilise it too, but we go to great lengths to keep our liquids as liquid (increased boiling points rather than lowered).

This could be a teachable moment though, so if you find anything on it... please post up as I would be genuinely interested to know