(Mini?) Gaming PC

[amoshi]

Hi everyone,

After 2 laptops (a PCS Cosmos 15 and PCS Defiance 17) it's time I get a desktop!
I'm aiming for a 1080p ultra settings 144fps (hence the 2070 Super, that's the minimum in my opinion)
I'm very flexible with my budget and I'll be doing just gaming.

One big question I have is around the mini/micro form factor - the general consensus on the interwebs seems to be that it doesn't affect temperatures that much, since airflow is the important factor.
- How true is the above?
- What case should I be aiming for with the below setup?
- What about the processor fan - should I upgrade?
- What about extra fans?

Thank you all in advance, looking to buy this around new year's.

Case
FRACTAL DEFINE S NANO GAMING CASE
Processor (CPU)
AMD Ryzen 5 3600 Six Core CPU (3.6GHz-4.2GHz/36MB CACHE/AM4)

Get 3 Months of XBOX Game Pass for PC w/ select AMD Ryzen CPUs
Motherboard
Gigabyte B450 I AORUS PRO WIFI (DDR4, USB 3.1, 6Gb/s)
Memory (RAM)
16GB Corsair VENGEANCE DDR4 3200MHz (2 x 8GB)
Graphics Card
8GB NVIDIA GEFORCE RTX 2070 SUPER - HDMI, 3x DP GeForce - RTX VR Ready!
1st Storage Drive
2TB SEAGATE BARRACUDA SATA-III 3.5" HDD, 6GB/s, 7200RPM, 256MB CACHE
1st M.2 SSD Drive
1TB PCS PCIe M.2 SSD (2000 MB/R, 1100 MB/W)
DVD/BLU-RAY Drive
NOT REQUIRED
Power Supply
CORSAIR 550W VS SERIES™ VS-550 POWER SUPPLY
Power Cable
1 x 1 Metre UK Power Cable (Kettle Lead)
Processor Cooling
STANDARD AMD CPU COOLER
Thermal Paste
ARCTIC MX-4 EXTREME THERMAL CONDUCTIVITY COMPOUND
Sound Card
ONBOARD 6 CHANNEL (5.1) HIGH DEF AUDIO (AS STANDARD)
Wireless/Wired Networking
GIGABIT LAN PORT + Wi-Fi (Wi-Fi excluded on H310I-PLUS)
USB/Thunderbolt Options
MIN. 2 x USB 3.0 & 4 x USB 2.0 PORTS @ BACK PANEL + MIN. 2 FRONT PORTS
Operating System
NO OPERATING SYSTEM REQUIRED
Operating System Language
United Kingdom - English Language
Windows Recovery Media
NO RECOVERY MEDIA REQUIRED
Office Software
FREE 30 Day Trial of Microsoft® Office® 365 (Operating System Required)
Anti-Virus
NO ANTI-VIRUS SOFTWARE
Browser
Microsoft® Edge (Windows 10 Only)
Warranty
3 Year Silver Warranty (1 Year Collect & Return, 1 Year Parts, 3 Year Labour)
Delivery
STANDARD INSURED DELIVERY TO UK MAINLAND (MON-FRI)
Build Time
Standard Build - Approximately 12 to 14 working days
Price: £1,194.00 including VAT and Delivery
Unique URL to re-configure: https://www.pcspecialist.co.uk/saved-configurations/amd-sff-gaming/yaZJ4x8!4R/

 

[Oussebon]

Tbh, a 2070 Super is utterly wasted on 1080p gaming. You should move to 1440p with a GPU like that. And not aim for consistent 144fps as that's just unrealistic anyway.

Mini ITX PCs are almost always not worth it. You sacrifice upgrade / expansion options for something that isn't actually much smaller than one of the smaller normal PC cases.

Here is your "mini" PC. : 203 x 330 x 400 mm Case dimensions - with feet/protrusions/screws
203 x 344 x 412 mm
And a "normal" PC case:
NZXT H500 - 460mm x 210mm x 428mm (Approx H x W x D)
Meshify C - 413 x 217 x 453 mm Case dimensions - with feet/protrusions/screws

So the Meshify C is 11cm taller, otherwise pretty well the same, and lets you have a 'full' size motherboard etc in there

Which isn't remotely surprising when you consider that you still need to fit the same things in there, and ideally not roast them.

PCS aren't currently selling the Meshify C - they were recently - but you can use the Send in your own case option.

 

[amoshi]

Why is aiming for 144fps unrealistic? At 1080p a 2070 Super and anything above should have no problem (I mean for the sake of argument, can you imagine a 2080Ti dipping below 144fps at 1080p? Worst case scenario, even if it dips, it's gonna be way above 60fps)

Thanks for the info about the case, makes sense. I'll have a look at small "full" PC cases.

 

[amoshi]

What about adding extra fans though? Is the thermals vs extra noise tradeoff worth it?

 

[polycrac]

Why is aiming for 144fps unrealistic? At 1080p a 2070 Super and anything above should have no problem (I mean for the sake of argument, can you imagine a 2080Ti dipping below 144fps at 1080p? Worst case scenario, even if it dips, it's gonna be way above 60fps)

I have a 2080 TI, playing at 1440p, 165 Hz. I'll only get up to and stay at max 165 fps on games where the graphics are trivial. In any other game (e.g. PUBG), my frame rates will average around say 100 - 110, occasionally get up to 160+ and sometimes dip to 50-60. If I play TWW2, I can get down to 20 fps during the turn end, because the CPU is bottle-necking the GPU. The variation from game to game is huge and the variation within any given game is massive too.

The same will be true for gaming at 1080p, you want a card that will give you a high fps at your chosen pixel count but that only comes as an average, they'll be dips in places whatever card you have. Not much point paying loads extra just to have fewer dips, given you'll get dips whatever. Just use Gsync or Freesync to stop them bothering you.

 

[amoshi]

Not much point paying loads extra just to have fewer dips

Fair point, but with money to spare I don't mind going for 2070 Super. I've recently sold my 27" 1440p monitor, it was too big physically hence my move to 23-24" and 1080p.

Any thoughts on the fans? The processor one and any potential extra ones?

 

[Oussebon]

Why is aiming for 144fps unrealistic? At 1080p a 2070 Super and anything above should have no problem (I mean for the sake of argument, can you imagine a 2080Ti dipping below 144fps at 1080p?

Even with my actually quite poor imagination, unfortunately yes.

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And even titles that run well over 100fps on a 2080 ti average like FC5, Metro Exodus, will see big drops on ultra.

Generally better to go for a more nuanced settings approach and not spending £XXX more on a GPU than you need. Having the money isn't a reason for spending it.

Extra case fans don't create more space in the case to improve airflow.

 

[Oussebon]

You can get 24" 1440p monitors. If you're aiming to play on ultra for high fidelity, then the high resolution should be important to you as a part of that experience.

 

[amoshi]

You can get 24" 1440p monitors. If you're aiming to play on ultra for high fidelity, then the high resolution should be important to you as a part of that experience.

Means I'd have to settle for a TN panel :/

I've been thinking over the case dilemma, and I'm still leaning towards a mini pc.
11cm is the best case scenario, the most common case seems to involve ~20 cm extra from what I glanced. Read more online about the topic and the "larger" mini cases, which are large for mini cases but still smaller than mid cases, can provide good thermals - such as the Fractal Define S Nano - as long as the components are positioned correctly (which I believe PCS will do but I'll check).
With thermals being kinda settled, we get onto the other constraint of the mini PC - RAM? 16GB is plenty for gaming, can swap the 2 sticks for 32GB in total later down the line if need be. GPU? SLI/CrossFire was, is and probably will be not worth it anytime soon. Drives? 2 m2 slots and 4 SATA ports seem plenty for gaming (the other MB choice has 2 m2 slots).

I guess you might've had bad experiences with mini PCs in the past but times change and based on the most recent information that I'm reading, mini-PCs seem like a viable option.

 

[Oussebon]

1) TN panels are decent enough these days, actually. You might have had bad experiences with TN panels in the past versus IPS, but times change and modern TN panels are actually pretty decent for colours and fidelity.

And at 1440p will have almost twice the pixel density as a 1080p screen. As for viewing angles if it's a 24" screen and you're not fairly nicely in front of it you're doing it wrong

2) btw, you guess wrong, I haven't had bad experiences with mini PCs, my mini PC is fine for what it is. But it's not a high end gaming PC, it's a £300 box with Linux. If it were a gaming PC, it would have the GPU pressed up against the side, being loud and getting dusty, struggle with airflow inside, and be obnoxiously loud. It's a Cooler Master 120 Elite, so unlike the Fractal Define S, it is actually mini. Sort of, it still has a footprint of an ATX case, like most "mini" cases. But thanks for the assumption that I had bad experiences in the past and don't read hardware media!

3) There are other things the even the Fractal Nano S doesn't help with. You'll probably dismiss 1 and 2 out of hand but 3 should be taken more seriously.
1) PCIe add in cards, should you find you need one (your uses change or something breaks on the mobo)
2) Sata ports and drive bays. I didn't think I'd ever populate the 8 sata ports on my mobo, and yet I did. Certainly cases like the Meshify C don't have loads of bays, though they do have at least one more than the Nano S.
3) GPU size. It supports a max of 39mm high GPUs, according to Fractal's recommendation.

This rules out any GPU that has more than a twin slot height. Many GPUs, as you know, only use 2 PCIe brackets, but extend below the 2nd one and are significantly over 39mm. Even the Zotac 2070 Super "Mini" is 41mm high (has a slightly bigger cooler than the ~38mm which is about the minimum, to make up for the reduced length). The AMP! Extreme which is the only tri-fan cooled one in Zotac's stable is 57mm.

It's not just the high end version of a high end GPU though. With slightly lower end GPUs like the RTX 2060, the fashion has been to offer many models with only a single fan but a much thicker heatstink. So in EVGA's case, it's not the high end 2060s that are thick, it's the more value oriented ones. It's cheapest 2060s are nearly 3-slotters.

Not just the green team either. For AMD, Sapphire would be my first port of call. For RX 5700 (XT) we have a choice of Nitro or Pulse models - 49mm and 46.5mm respectively. Let's ignore the 38mm blower cooler...

The fashion does seem to be towards offering GPUs with thicker heatsinks, and not just for premium models.

The point is this - for very slight economies of (in any event, dead) vertical space, you're locking yourself out of upgrade options.

You seem to want something that calls itself a mini PC, but you're not actually buying a mini PC. Very understandably as you don't want the worst thermal and noise drawbacks that come with the smallest cases. But as a result you end up buying something that's not actually mini, but still limits your options unnecessarily though the mini ITX form factor and trying to shave a few cm off the height.

It's your cash, I just don't see a shred of logic. My firm recommendation is still send in a Meshify C and go with a normal system that won't shut off upgrade options for no real benefit.

 

[amoshi]

1) TN panels are decent enough these days, actually. You might have had bad experiences with TN panels in the past versus IPS, but times change and modern TN panels are actually pretty decent for colours and fidelity.

And at 1440p will have almost twice the pixel density as a 1080p screen. As for viewing angles if it's a 24" screen and you're not fairly nicely in front of it you're doing it wrong

2) btw, you guess wrong, I haven't had bad experiences with mini PCs, my mini PC is fine for what it is. But it's not a high end gaming PC, it's a £300 box with Linux. If it were a gaming PC, it would have the GPU pressed up against the side, being loud and getting dusty, struggle with airflow inside, and be obnoxiously loud. It's a Cooler Master 120 Elite, so unlike the Fractal Define S, it is actually mini. Sort of, it still has a footprint of an ATX case, like most "mini" cases. But thanks for the assumption that I had bad experiences in the past and don't read hardware media!

3) There are other things the even the Fractal Nano S doesn't help with. You'll probably dismiss 1 and 2 out of hand but 3 should be taken more seriously.
1) PCIe add in cards, should you find you need one (your uses change or something breaks on the mobo)
2) Sata ports and drive bays. I didn't think I'd ever populate the 8 sata ports on my mobo, and yet I did. Certainly cases like the Meshify C don't have loads of bays, though they do have at least one more than the Nano S.
3) GPU size. It supports a max of 39mm high GPUs, according to Fractal's recommendation.

This rules out any GPU that has more than a twin slot height. Many GPUs, as you know, only use 2 PCIe brackets, but extend below the 2nd one and are significantly over 39mm. Even the Zotac 2070 Super "Mini" is 41mm high (has a slightly bigger cooler than the ~38mm which is about the minimum, to make up for the reduced length). The AMP! Extreme which is the only tri-fan cooled one in Zotac's stable is 57mm.

It's not just the high end version of a high end GPU though. With slightly lower end GPUs like the RTX 2060, the fashion has been to offer many models with only a single fan but a much thicker heatstink. So in EVGA's case, it's not the high end 2060s that are thick, it's the more value oriented ones. It's cheapest 2060s are nearly 3-slotters.

Not just the green team either. For AMD, Sapphire would be my first port of call. For RX 5700 (XT) we have a choice of Nitro or Pulse models - 49mm and 46.5mm respectively. Let's ignore the 38mm blower cooler...

The fashion does seem to be towards offering GPUs with thicker heatsinks, and not just for premium models.

The point is this - for very slight economies of (in any event, dead) vertical space, you're locking yourself out of upgrade options.

You seem to want something that calls itself a mini PC, but you're not actually buying a mini PC. Very understandably as you don't want the worst thermal and noise drawbacks that come with the smallest cases. But as a result you end up buying something that's not actually mini, but still limits your options unnecessarily though the mini ITX form factor and trying to shave a few cm off the height.

It's your cash, I just don't see a shred of logic. My firm recommendation is still send in a Meshify C and go with a normal system that won't shut off upgrade options for no real benefit.

Haha, using the UNO reverse card, nice.
Unfortunately I checked newer TN panels in Currys PCWorld not too long ago, not as good looking as IPS/VA (both of which I own(ed)).
Indeed, 1 and 2 aren't dealbreakers.
Fair point about 3, I guess the 3600 will last a few years so I could upgrade just the GPU.
Welp, you got me haha, won't be going for these mini cases. I think however that I'll go for the BE QUIET! BASE 601 TOWER GAMING CASE since I'd like to reduce the noise levels.
Thanks for the suggestions Oussebon, how does the below look?

Case
BE QUIET! BASE 601 TOWER GAMING CASE
Processor (CPU)
AMD Ryzen 5 3600 Six Core CPU (3.6GHz-4.2GHz/36MB CACHE/AM4)

Get 3 Months of XBOX Game Pass for PC w/ select AMD Ryzen CPUs
Motherboard
ASUS® PRIME B450-PLUS (DDR4, USB 3.1, 6Gb/s) - RGB Ready!
Memory (RAM)
16GB Corsair VENGEANCE DDR4 3200MHz (2 x 8GB)
Graphics Card
8GB NVIDIA GEFORCE RTX 2070 SUPER - HDMI, 3x DP GeForce - RTX VR Ready!
1st Storage Drive
2TB SEAGATE BARRACUDA SATA-III 3.5" HDD, 6GB/s, 7200RPM, 256MB CACHE
1st M.2 SSD Drive
512GB PCS PCIe M.2 SSD (2000 MB/R, 1100 MB/W)
DVD/BLU-RAY Drive
NOT REQUIRED
Power Supply
CORSAIR 550W VS SERIES™ VS-550 POWER SUPPLY
Power Cable
1 x 1 Metre UK Power Cable (Kettle Lead)
Processor Cooling
Noctua NH-U14S Ultra Quiet Performance CPU Cooler
Thermal Paste
ARCTIC MX-4 EXTREME THERMAL CONDUCTIVITY COMPOUND
Sound Card
ONBOARD 6 CHANNEL (5.1) HIGH DEF AUDIO (AS STANDARD)
Wireless/Wired Networking
WIRELESS INTEL® Wi-Fi 6 AX200 2,400Mbps/5GHz, 300Mbps/2.4GHz PCI-E CARD + BT 5.0
USB/Thunderbolt Options
MIN. 2 x USB 3.0 & 2 x USB 2.0 PORTS @ BACK PANEL + MIN. 2 FRONT PORTS
Operating System
NO OPERATING SYSTEM REQUIRED
Operating System Language
United Kingdom - English Language
Windows Recovery Media
NO RECOVERY MEDIA REQUIRED
Office Software
FREE 30 Day Trial of Microsoft® Office® 365 (Operating System Required)
Anti-Virus
NO ANTI-VIRUS SOFTWARE
Browser
Microsoft® Edge (Windows 10 Only)
Warranty
3 Year Silver Warranty (1 Year Collect & Return, 1 Year Parts, 3 Year Labour)
Delivery
STANDARD INSURED DELIVERY TO UK MAINLAND (MON-FRI)
Build Time
Standard Build - Approximately 12 to 14 working days
Price: £1,244.00 including VAT and Delivery
Unique URL to re-configure: https://www.pcspecialist.co.uk/saved-configurations/amd-am4-gen3-pc/vgHzEzXfcn/

 

[Oussebon]

Did Curry's have 1440p TN panels btw? Or 1440p IPS ones for that matter? Genuine question, my local one never had anything over 1080p except for 4k TVs...

 

[amoshi]

1440p VA and TN panels definitely, IPS probably/not sure.