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Ryzen are a completely different league, they use substantially less power in the first place, peak about 10 degrees lower than intel.
How's your new Ionico 17 laptop doing?
- Thread starter troshik1991
- Start date
Macco26
Expert
@Cenksenci
It's basically for e-peen in benchmarks, for workloads not lasting very long. Probably pushes the Power limits of the CPU way beyond what Intel recommends.
In the past generation it was 120W endlessly, while Intel mobile chips are rated at 45W, go figure.
There was the temperature hard limit anyway, so they never reached 120W in reality, but still out of Intel specs. Suited for a brief Timespy and that's it.
Or if you want to render a project in 10 minutes, with your GPU idling, but would not keep that setting much more than that, let alone while gaming.
It's basically for e-peen in benchmarks, for workloads not lasting very long. Probably pushes the Power limits of the CPU way beyond what Intel recommends.
In the past generation it was 120W endlessly, while Intel mobile chips are rated at 45W, go figure.
There was the temperature hard limit anyway, so they never reached 120W in reality, but still out of Intel specs. Suited for a brief Timespy and that's it.
Or if you want to render a project in 10 minutes, with your GPU idling, but would not keep that setting much more than that, let alone while gaming.
@Cenksenci The point of having it is like you can push all slide to the right for a benchmark and impress people but even if the cooling system can sustain 90°+C the component will suffer anyway. I plane to use it maybe before switching to another laptop in my case (when I don't really care if it broke). If you really need more cpu performance, buy the corresponding item. About the cooling pad, mine is a CoolerMaster with fans that can be attached under the grid (and powered via USB). But now it's just the grid since the fans changed nothing with my setup. But I don't know, it can help depending on the back of the laptop maybe.
Macco26
Expert
@Romain337
Probably we have the same Coolermaster pad. Mine broke its included 3 fans once. I bought from Amzon 2 big diameter 12cm USB powered fans and attached under it where airintakes are. Very customizable and very silent given the 12cm size. 10 euros for fans worth spending IMO.
Probably we have the same Coolermaster pad. Mine broke its included 3 fans once. I bought from Amzon 2 big diameter 12cm USB powered fans and attached under it where airintakes are. Very customizable and very silent given the 12cm size. 10 euros for fans worth spending IMO.
barlew
Godlike
XTU has also mean mentioned as a means to alter CPU properties to reduce operating temperatures. I cannot stress this enough the, I7-10875H is not compatible with XTU. It is actually possible to brick your laptop by applying an under-volt to this CPU with XTU so do not do it.
Compatibillity list: https://downloadcenter.intel.com/download/29183/Intel-Extreme-Tuning-Utility-Intel-XTU-
Compatibillity list: https://downloadcenter.intel.com/download/29183/Intel-Extreme-Tuning-Utility-Intel-XTU-
TheMash
Bronze Level Poster
If in conjunction with a full GPU load it could be possible, as they have shared heatpipes. Far from ideal of course, so abnormal, but it depends on the point of view.
It's below 10C the TJMax so it would be perfectly acceptable from the thermal design standpoint.
The problem isn't only the CPU but the thermal saturation of the cooling system and the surroundings on the MB. VRM, capacitors, memory chips and so on. If you have 90C on the CPU chances are your electronics is working very hard and we know that heat and moisture is the worst enemy of electronics, in terms of reliability and lifespan.
Plus the introduction of a 165Hz display makes you try to play games at 165FPS to achieve the best visual experience.
Unfortunately it stresses more the CPU as it has to feed the GPU with constant 165FPS, which is even more than 144FPS on my Vyper.
More frames you display, more heat from CPU and GPU.
Also Ionico has a very good cooling system, but cooling 8 cores at 100W plus 135W (peak of course) on the GPU it's a challenge for a compact chassis and cooling solution.
I would try to lower the temps limiting the CPU power during the game sessions. You don't need the full 120W power capability of the 10875H during gaming, which, as we know, it totally fully unlocked on the TongFang systems.
Of course that is PL1 and it will fall under more sustainable power after about 30sec I believe (PL2). But still too high.
I don't know the power limits set for the Ionico laptop, but they should be the same as the previous model, being the same CPU.
Gaming mode set the PL1 and PL2 at 100W. Plus your GPU receives a factory hardware overboost (at least on 2070 models) while on Gaming mode and Performance Mode.
Performance mode set the PL1 and PL2 at the same value, 100W. Too much for long sessions. Plus your are heating your GPU due to shared heatpipes.
Other manufacturers changed these PL values while I think on PCS they left at stock values, which are too high.
I've seen 45W power limit on gaming mode on another manufacturer equivalent laptop, while PCS has them with 100W limit. A bit nonsense, being the same as Performance mode.
You can't modify stock PL so you need to do it manually, using ThrottleStop.
Luckily TongFang has unlocked BIOS to change FIVR values.
It requires an advanced knowledge of managing CPU power and settings, so if you are uncomfortable doing this, read the instructions for ThrottleStop and how CPU works. Take your time.
It's hard to break something but if you start to do something by mistake (as overvolting), your can permanently damage your laptop.
Short answer:
- Set your PL to lower limits using ThrottleStop. Create multiple profiles to achieve this result. You can use the TDP setting or the ICCMax for the CPU to keep it to a reasonable value.
The key here is to find a value that doesn't limit your GPU ability to be feeded with data to be processed.
You would be tempted to lower the CPU PL too much to save power but you will make your GPU unable to receive enough data to be processed, hence, lower FPS.
You can undervolt your CPU as well to have slight less heat. Mine was undervolted at -75mV.
To give an example, I've set mine at about 35-45W. On some games you can go even lower as they don't need to much CPU power - You can even play games on Office mode, it's perfectly fine and you will have good FPS. Of course check it with the dedicated tools to see if you loose too much FPS. You will have much lower temperatures.
- repaste the CPU and GPU;
- do some assemble/reassemble of the heatsinks to check if the contact is good, repasting it each time you disassemble it;
- install Throttlestop and create a gaming profile, limiting the PL1 and PL2 values to avoid too much heat being accumulating in the cooling system. As an example, you could limit them at 60W-45W or even lower;
- Undervolt your CPU;
- Limit your FPS in games, using dedicated softwares (RTSS, MSI Afterburner, or the game settings themselves if present).
limiting FPS will lower a lot your workload and your temps will fall; - Use a cooling pad to allow your chassis to be cooler on the bottom side (which is where your components resides).
The stock thermal paste isn't that bad at all, but in my opinion there was too much of it.
The following pictures are from my Vyper (CPU and GPU). I still have to write a review of my Vyper but I've been too busy at work, so I'll share these pictures here.
Too much thermal paste to be honest.
To repaste I've used Thermalright TF-8, which is rated at 13.8 W/m, which is not bad for its category.
I'd have tried liquid metal, but it's too risky in my opinion.
These laptop are beasts of machines, and as other users said, they're racing cars, fully customisable.These are not stock cars.
When buying these machines you have to expect a further optimisation done by the final user
I didn't have the chance to read thoroughly the whole thread as I'm bit busy, hopefully what I wrote hasn't been already said in the past pages!
If it is the case, sorry in advance.
Last edited:
barlew
Godlike
Great detailed response however I massively disagree. I have that exact chip in two different laptops one was a Vyper 17 which used to sit around 80 and the other is another brand which sits around 75C. These guys are gaming and seeing sustained 90C+, which is 10C cooler but you can bet the reason its cooler is because it is massively thermal throttling.
You make a great point about the 165Hz display, apart from I have a 300Hz display and maxed out the laptop tops out around 85C.
Whilst I agree and fully support your advice to optimise the system using undervolt's, different power profiles through ThrottleStop, in my mind the laptop should be running at an acceptable level i.e. in the 80C's before you do this.
There has always been a small minority in the community that deem it acceptable to retard the performance of their CPU or even limit the FPS in their games (WTF??!!) to bring it into acceptable temps. Unfortunately this trend seems to be hugely exaggerated with the Ionico being released. People seem to be throwing all common sense out the window because they have spent thousands on the latest thin and light and don't want to acknowledge there is a drama.
If you had posted at the start of last year saying the CPU in your Vyper out of the box was sustained 90C+, people would have been up in arms (rightly so). But now just because there is a new generation of GPU's it is suddenly acceptable for the same CPU to run that hot.
TheMash
Bronze Level Poster
Thank you Barlew
Let me be more clear.
If there's an issue with the cooling system (bad paste job, bent heatpipes, stripped screws to fix the cooling system), bad software optimisation, bad UEFI/drivers or something similar, undervolting or lowering/limiting the amount of power isn't the solution.
You're just mitigating it but as you said, you aren't fully using the features of your device.
Undervolting isn't the solution to bigger issues under the hood. You do that to optimise your machine afterwards, not to fix issues.
On the other side, I choose to limit the FPS of my system in some cases as I don't always need the full power.
Doing this I get lower power consumption, less heat, more lifespan for the whole system as a side effect.
Why should I play an almost static game at 144FPS, to give an example? I'm not a competitive player, I find playing a game at 144Hz pretty useless for me in some situation
However playing at 144Hz it's very pleasant to the eye and the experience is amazing. I do it on games I feel it's worth it as an example.
I'm not saying that having more powerful GPU automatically justifies and make acceptable having higher CPU temps.
But this is physics. You have about 200W of heat to be dissipated by small fans (despite being very good ones, as they are Sunon branded and designed to move a lot of air) and 4 heatipipes, in a chassis 2cm thick.
Heatpipes are shared. Everything is cramped onto a multilayer PCB motherboard with almost no space around it.
You have a peak of 135W on the GPU to be dissipated. That's a lot a for a thin laptop.
The Ionico/Vyper does a good job in terms of cooling to be honest. But Intel CPUs are very hot at full load.
This is a similar amount of power I was dissipating on a full custom liquid cooled workstation which used a Laing DDC 1, two radiators (360+240), EK waterblock on both CPU and GPU.
Of course I had ridiculous low temperature there. But I'm putting it in perspective. 200W for a small laptop it's a lot of power.
You need to extremely fine tune your system to get that temperatures 5-10C lower.
I don't have the OP laptop in my hands, so I don't know what's going on under the hood.
There are too many unknown variables here.
I don't know what the ambient temperature was while these temperature have been recorded, how long he was playing, how much thermal paste is on the DIE, etc.
He needs to investigate and understand how his machine works.
As you said 10C it's a lot. But I don't see anything wrong limiting performance a little bit in some specific cases to retain some lower temps and better lifespan.
Sometimes people spend a lot money on something and they expect it should perform flawlessly.
I understand it, it's a psychological factor.
But I think when someone buy this kind of machine should do his own research to understand what it's going to be purchased.
I'm talking in general, of course. Not specific to anyone.
Let me be more clear.
If there's an issue with the cooling system (bad paste job, bent heatpipes, stripped screws to fix the cooling system), bad software optimisation, bad UEFI/drivers or something similar, undervolting or lowering/limiting the amount of power isn't the solution.
You're just mitigating it but as you said, you aren't fully using the features of your device.
Undervolting isn't the solution to bigger issues under the hood. You do that to optimise your machine afterwards, not to fix issues.
On the other side, I choose to limit the FPS of my system in some cases as I don't always need the full power.
Doing this I get lower power consumption, less heat, more lifespan for the whole system as a side effect.
Why should I play an almost static game at 144FPS, to give an example? I'm not a competitive player, I find playing a game at 144Hz pretty useless for me in some situation
However playing at 144Hz it's very pleasant to the eye and the experience is amazing. I do it on games I feel it's worth it as an example.
I'm not saying that having more powerful GPU automatically justifies and make acceptable having higher CPU temps.
But this is physics. You have about 200W of heat to be dissipated by small fans (despite being very good ones, as they are Sunon branded and designed to move a lot of air) and 4 heatipipes, in a chassis 2cm thick.
Heatpipes are shared. Everything is cramped onto a multilayer PCB motherboard with almost no space around it.
You have a peak of 135W on the GPU to be dissipated. That's a lot a for a thin laptop.
The Ionico/Vyper does a good job in terms of cooling to be honest. But Intel CPUs are very hot at full load.
This is a similar amount of power I was dissipating on a full custom liquid cooled workstation which used a Laing DDC 1, two radiators (360+240), EK waterblock on both CPU and GPU.
Of course I had ridiculous low temperature there. But I'm putting it in perspective. 200W for a small laptop it's a lot of power.
You need to extremely fine tune your system to get that temperatures 5-10C lower.
I don't have the OP laptop in my hands, so I don't know what's going on under the hood.
There are too many unknown variables here.
I don't know what the ambient temperature was while these temperature have been recorded, how long he was playing, how much thermal paste is on the DIE, etc.
He needs to investigate and understand how his machine works.
As you said 10C it's a lot. But I don't see anything wrong limiting performance a little bit in some specific cases to retain some lower temps and better lifespan.
Sometimes people spend a lot money on something and they expect it should perform flawlessly.
I understand it, it's a psychological factor.
But I think when someone buy this kind of machine should do his own research to understand what it's going to be purchased.
I'm talking in general, of course. Not specific to anyone.
Macco26
Expert
@TheMash
Don't worry about PL1 and PL2 this time. Tongfang got us covered: the New CC (and I've seen it actually working on Ionico, from a picture of another owner in the PCS italian forum) works wonders.
It starts w/ 3 power profiles as before, BUT totally customizable at your wish: you can set PL4 (it's a first burst PL), then the PL2 (it's the first tau seconds PL) then the sustaind PL1. You can overwrite OG profile or use one of the other 12 profile slots available.
I've seen elsewhere also undervolt is available in the CC, but not in every version, so I actually don't know if still it is a feature.
Once mine arrives, for sure I'll keep it at PL1 = 45W for the my gaming profile, no more. Aka the rated specs of Intel for this thing.
PS: regarding 165 Hz, you're right but actually not I mean, ok, you get more frames than 144 to render, but for that resolution your GPU shall render 2160x1440 pixels, that's like more than 70% more than FullHD. 1440p screens pushe the boundaries toward a GPU constraint scenario, not CPU.
Don't worry about PL1 and PL2 this time. Tongfang got us covered: the New CC (and I've seen it actually working on Ionico, from a picture of another owner in the PCS italian forum) works wonders.
It starts w/ 3 power profiles as before, BUT totally customizable at your wish: you can set PL4 (it's a first burst PL), then the PL2 (it's the first tau seconds PL) then the sustaind PL1. You can overwrite OG profile or use one of the other 12 profile slots available.
I've seen elsewhere also undervolt is available in the CC, but not in every version, so I actually don't know if still it is a feature.
Once mine arrives, for sure I'll keep it at PL1 = 45W for the my gaming profile, no more. Aka the rated specs of Intel for this thing.
PS: regarding 165 Hz, you're right but actually not
I mean, ok, you get more frames than 144 to render, but for that resolution your GPU shall render 2160x1440 pixels, that's like more than 70% more than FullHD. 1440p screens pushe the boundaries toward a GPU constraint scenario, not CPU.
barlew
Godlike
I know we have had this discussion before but you realise 45W is the average rated TDP right?@TheMash
Don't worry about PL1 and PL2 this time. Tongfang got us covered: the New CC (and I've seen it actually working on Ionico, from a picture of another owner in the PCS italian forum) works wonders.
It starts w/ 3 power profiles as before, BUT totally customizable at your wish: you can set PL4 (it's a first burst PL), then the PL2 (it's the first tau seconds PL) then the sustaind PL1. You can overwrite OG profile or use one of the other 12 profile slots available.
I've seen elsewhere also undervolt is available in the CC, but not in every version, so I actually don't know if still it is a feature.
Once mine arrives, for sure I'll keep it at PL1 = 45W for the my gaming profile, no more. Aka the rated specs of Intel for this thing.
PS: regarding 165 Hz, you're right but actually not
barlew
Godlike
My whole point here is the laptop should run at an acceptable temperature out of the box. If the user wants to degrade its performance to get even cooler temps that is fine.
barlew
Godlike
45W is the AVERAGE TDP for the chip: LINK FROM THE INTEL WEBSITE!!!!
*EDIT* https://ark.intel.com/content/www/u...0875h-processor-16m-cache-up-to-5-10-ghz.html
Macco26
Expert
Yet my point is: it's also PL1. After tau seconds Intel design it to stick with it. By definition of PL1.
Anything different is out of specs
barlew
Godlike
Literally wasting my time here.
barlew
Godlike
Before I tap out, what you are referencing in that link is the Intel performance index which is not a technical specification for the chip as dictated by Intel. It is Intel advertising what their chips are capable of in real world scenarios when they are in laptops which have been configured by 3rd party manufacturers not Intel.
If Intel mandated that the Max TDP of the chip was 45W they would advertise it as 45W max not average.
*edit* I assume this is why you have selectively chosen an entry from 2018 which does not show which manufacturer configured the chip unlike all the other entries.
If Intel mandated that the Max TDP of the chip was 45W they would advertise it as 45W max not average.
*edit* I assume this is why you have selectively chosen an entry from 2018 which does not show which manufacturer configured the chip unlike all the other entries.
Macco26
Expert
Intel can't advertise "45W as max" as it's wrong by definition and you didn't follow what I said; during first tau (56) seconds PL4 and PL2 can be way higher than PL1. Yet sustained PL1 design for Intel 10875H is 45W.
However I'm a bit tired discussing with you about this. I'll leave this here:
It's the offiial spec sheet for 10th gen comet lake, released by Intel June 2020. I just highlighed for you what is the PL1 of an 8 core -H processors (valid for both 10875H and 10980H).
I won't provide you the pdf but feel free to lurk around to find it if you don't believe. I googled and found it in minutes.
How curious, it's the same wattage the thermal system should dissipate for an indefinite time (TDP definition) when full core load is applied. OEMs can of course push this to higher limits and I don't think it's bad idea on a Desktop. But in a notebook lifespan will be largely comprimised if you exceed the Intel PL1 by 2.5x factor 24/7. If you put 120W endless limit don't judge Intel processors reaching 90+ °C as junk. They were not designed to do so.
Morale of the story: I'll use as PL1 the designed value in the Intel spec sheet. My old Clevo burning all its VRMs 4 times in a row is enough for me to adhere as much as possible to the designed values for a given product.
However I'm a bit tired discussing with you about this. I'll leave this here:
It's the offiial spec sheet for 10th gen comet lake, released by Intel June 2020. I just highlighed for you what is the PL1 of an 8 core -H processors (valid for both 10875H and 10980H).
I won't provide you the pdf but feel free to lurk around to find it if you don't believe. I googled and found it in minutes.
How curious, it's the same wattage the thermal system should dissipate for an indefinite time (TDP definition) when full core load is applied. OEMs can of course push this to higher limits and I don't think it's bad idea on a Desktop. But in a notebook lifespan will be largely comprimised if you exceed the Intel PL1 by 2.5x factor 24/7. If you put 120W endless limit don't judge Intel processors reaching 90+ °C as junk. They were not designed to do so.
Morale of the story: I'll use as PL1 the designed value in the Intel spec sheet. My old Clevo burning all its VRMs 4 times in a row is enough for me to adhere as much as possible to the designed values for a given product.
barlew
Godlike
No its not the official spec sheet! What I linked you too was (literally the title of the page is product specification...) and you are deliberately misrepresenting what it says because it does not back up your argument.