Details on the upcoming Control Center for Ionico laptop (and other future Tongfang 2021 chassis)

[barlew]

Rated wattage for that processor is 45W. Previous Tongfang boost profile operation was 120W so to top chart in benchmark etc, but against Intel PL1 recommendations. It can handle this, sure but with quite noisy operation. A thing I can avoid during gaming where the more the juice to the GPU, the better, not CPU. Adds to that, New RTX 30 offer Dynamic Boost whereas the CPU stays at 35W or below, then you should start understanding why underpowering the processor during gameplay MIGHT be a good move, as you get more wattage for the GPU, and 1440p gameplay surely is GPU bottlenecked. I'm not thinking that Ionico can't sustain 120W CPU power, but unless for rendering or cinebenching for the lolz, keeping 120W CPU profile is actually detrimental for the gaming with 2021 machines and that's what I'll be doing, gaming.

I'm not sure you understand how TDP works?
Yes the base TDP for that chip is rated at 45W but if you lock it to that you are going to have an all round bad experience. The chip is designed to have different PL1 and PL2 states to boost the chip which will give it its advertised speeds.

*edit* you are also confusing how dynamic boost works and the performance gains you are going to receive from it.

 

[Macco26]

I think I have a pretty good grasp of Intel TDP, yeah.
I am going to limit its PL1, not PL2. So yeah, I'll give it the chance to top up for the first like 28 seconds (tau), so to improve responsiveness, but in the long term, during gameplay, it shall follow what power limit Intel intended for it. Or even lower, if I see the NVIDIA Dynamic Boost allows me to increase the GPU wattage (and FPS) at 1440p when CPU stays at 35W. It will all depend on the game tested. Nothing granted, sure. We'll see.
If you check Vyper it should stay like at 120W = PL1 = PL2. Or at least that's what I've seen in some screen captures around the world. It's the PL2 set that suck, beside for topping benchmark charts. You can change it with Throttlestop sure (and I'd recommend everybody to do so while gaming) but still Vyper can't get the benefit of Dynamic Boost.

 

[barlew]

I think I have a pretty good grasp of Intel TDP, yeah.
I am going to limit its PL1, not PL2. So yeah, I'll give it the chance to top up for the first like 28 seconds (tau), so to improve responsiveness, but in the long term, during gameplay, it shall follow what power limit Intel intended for it. Or even lower, if I see the NVIDIA Dynamic Boost allows me to increase the GPU wattage (and FPS) at 1440p when CPU stays at 35W. It will all depend on the game tested. Nothing granted, sure. We'll see.
If you check Vyper it should stay like at 120W = PL1 = PL2. Or at least that's what I've seen in some screen captures around the world. It's the PL2 set that suck, beside for topping benchmark charts. You can change it with Throttlestop sure (and I'd recommend everybody to do so while gaming) but still Vyper can't get the benefit of Dynamic Boost.

Number 1) Dynamic Boost is designed to work when the CPU has a naturally lower workload so that it can take advantage of the free heat over-head. What you are talking about is to manually bottlenecking your CPU to force Dynamic Boost to kick in.

Number 2) Dynamic Boost on average only gives about a 9% increase in performance. I would wager that your forced bottleneck will have a more detrimental effect to your performance than the gains you are going to see.

TongFang will have configured that laptop to provide the best gaming performance they can. That is guaranteed. You will no doubt bring down your thermals by carrying out what you propose but you will without a doubt reduce the laptops performance.

 

[Macco26]

I agree with you that I need to test this, and given the high customability of the new Control Center, I for sure will be able to find some golden rule.

However I am saying about this CPU PL1 limit for a strict Gaming scenario. And after having reviewed several benchmarks and gameplay with PL limit shown, I am pretty confident that almost every current game does not require more than 45W. If you look at how much CyberPunk 2077 from a laptop almost identical in specification to Ionico (Intel 8 core + 3070 Max-P):
(check next message for picture)
You can see that while gaming, CPU stays at quiter low wattage. All the juice goes to the GPU, in dire need to push FPS the more it can. See this RTX 3070? It pushes 127W (from stock 115W) thanks to Dynamic Boost in place.

At this picture was at 1080p. At 1440p the game is pretty much totally GPU bottlenecked. If you gave the CPU more power it'd stay there doing nothing while GPU was crazy preparing the next frame. I wouldn't be surprised if at 1440p the RTX3070 wattage was like 135W or 140W (the max for Ionico, btw).

I am definitely planning to create a GAMING PROFILE (new Control Center allows up to 15 custom profiles, you know*) with some sort of limit on the CPU. Just to be sure. Probably those actions are not needed, all is automatic? Maybe, but I'm double checking this year Tongfang is not giving a PL1 limit of 120W for gaming, lol.

* If moderators did not remove the link to the new Tongfang Control Center manual you'd see that.

 

[Macco26]

Sorry wrong picture. It was Read Dead Redeption 2
CyberPunk 2077 is CPU at 19W!

 

[barlew]

Sorry wrong picture. It was Read Dead Redeption 2
CyberPunk 2077 is CPU at 19W!
View attachment 21981

Do you know if that CPU is an I7-10875H like in the Ionico?

If so I question the accuracy of this. At 45W TDP Intel state that chip will run at 2.30GHz.

Product Specifications

quick reference guide including specifications, features, pricing, compatibility, design documentation, ordering codes, spec codes and more.

ark.intel.com

Also that is just a snapshot in time. Power consumption fluctuates wildly during operation so how do you know what wattage the power limits are set to on that CPU.

*Edit for clarity*

*Double edit for further opinion*

 

[Macco26]

Sure, generally I don't speak without actual evidence of data. I wouldn't put a TigerLake or a Desktop PC in the thread.
It is the 10870H with same thermals of the 10875H, just binned worse. No difference in performance from actual gaming/benchmarks. Same PL. There is an entire video about this machine in the OWNorDisown yt channel. I just screencaptured one single frame. Feel free to check 1080p or 1440p benchmark of that CPU/GPU config.

PLUS you forget that at 45W ALL CORES that CPU goes 2.30 Ghz. Thanks God for gaming you won't actually require 8 cores / 16 threads.

 

[barlew]

Sure, generally I don't speak without actual evidence of data. I wouldn't put a TigerLake or a Desktop PC in the thread.
It is the 10870H with same thermals of the 10875H, just binned worse. No difference in performance from actual gaming/benchmarks. Same PL. There is an entire video about this machine in the OWNorDisown yt channel.

Ill test it tonight and let you know what happens.

*ill also check out the video*

 

[barlew]

PLUS you forget that at 45W ALL CORES that CPU goes 2.30 Ghz. Thanks God for gaming you won't actually require 8 cores / 16 threads.

This is a valid point.

 

[barlew]

Sure, generally I don't speak without actual evidence of data. I wouldn't put a TigerLake or a Desktop PC in the thread.
It is the 10870H with same thermals of the 10875H, just binned worse. No difference in performance from actual gaming/benchmarks. Same PL. There is an entire video about this machine in the OWNorDisown yt channel. I just screencaptured one single frame. Feel free to check 1080p or 1440p benchmark of that CPU/GPU config.

PLUS you forget that at 45W ALL CORES that CPU goes 2.30 Ghz. Thanks God for gaming you won't actually require 8 cores / 16 threads.

That was a really interesting video thanks for pointing it out.
For those interested it can be found here:

The interesting thing about this video is it backs up 100% of what I have said to you. Dynamic Boost has a negligible impact on performance because it is bottlenecking the CPU. Any performance gains seen by the GPU are cancelled out by the lower performance in the CPU. Steve even says this at the end of the video at 6.50.

This is by the way using the default PL values from the manufacturer. What you are suggesting is reducing those and locking them which would make your performance even worse.

On almost every game he showcased the CPU package power goes above 45 Watts (by the way we also don't know what the sample rate is of that readout so it may be breaking that threshold without registering on screen).

Your main reason for doing this is thermals and fan noise. Well yes you will be dropping the operating temps of the CPU (to the detriment of performance) but your fan noise will stay the same because you're just making the GPU run hotter instead.

After watching that video I wouldn't use Dynamic Boost with a standard laptop let alone with one configured to drop the PL values.

 

[barlew]

Another very interesting video on the subject showing dynamic boost is an absolute mine field. According to BOB if you are going to be gaming at 1440p the situation gets even worse as resolutions above 1080p rely much more heavily on the CPU.

 

[Macco26]

Another very interesting video on the subject showing dynamic boost is an absolute mine field. According to BOB if you are going to be gaming at 1440p the situation gets even worse as resolutions above 1080p rely much more heavily on the CPU.

Quite the opposite. 1440p is not CPU bottlenecked. But believe what you want. That's why Hardware Unboxing tests always at very low resolution new CPUs, because there they make the difference. Not so much in 1440p and beyond, where all the horse power should go to the GPU.

About the previous message of yours, I had already watched both the video you linked and the one before, where he benchmarked a CPU/GPU as like as the Ionico, where I picked a screenshot from.
I'd recommend you check also that one. In that one he benchmarked both 1080p and 1440p.

In summary: I won't limit my CPU unless I get benefits from that, sure. But my bet is that 45W is plenty and probably also 35W.
Take an example here from past generation: Office = PL1 35W, Gaming PL1 = 45W, Beast PL1 = 120W CPU. FPS on first is better.

 

[barlew]

Quite the opposite. 1440p is not CPU bottlenecked. But believe what you want. That's why Hardware Unboxing tests always at very low resolution new CPUs, because there they make the difference. Not so much in 1440p and beyond, where all the horse power should go to the GPU.

About the previous message of yours, I had already watched both the video you linked and the one before, where he benchmarked a CPU/GPU as like as the Ionico, where I picked a screenshot from.
I'd recommend you check also that one. In that one he benchmarked both 1080p and 1440p.

In summary: I won't limit my CPU unless I get benefits from that, sure. But my bet is that 45W is plenty and probably also 35W.
Take an example here from past generation: Office = PL1 35W, Gaming PL1 = 45W, Beast PL1 = 120W CPU. FPS on first is better.
View attachment 21988

Ok mate like I said both of those videos literally state the opposite to what you are saying I am not pulling this out of thin air it is there stated by the experts for all to see.

You are massively over stating the performance gains of Dynamic Boost.

In your last example for the previous generation the reason that 35W PL worked better in some chassis (the key word here being some) was because the cooling systems could not dissipate the heat and the CPU ended up thermal throttling.

The correct way to deal with this issue is to apply better thermal compound and perform an under-volt to dissipate the heat better. Not reduce the capability of the CPU to produce less heat.

The chassis with good heat dissipation performed far better at the higher PL limits because they did not thermal throttle. I know this as i had 3 different chassis of the last generation, one from Clevo one from Tong Fang and one From Asus all similar or the same specs.

I am now repeating myself so will back out of this debate.

 

[barlew]

"Quite the opposite. 1440p is not CPU bottlenecked."

Final point Bob explains the opposite at around 2.13 in his video.

 

[Macco26]

I agree witth you that, by limiting CPU PL I might see some improvement in some games, while less improvement or even worsening in other more CPU demanding ones, that's a given.
One single sentence from Bob can be useful, yet he hasn't got his hands on a single RTX 30 laptop with 1440p so, I'd take his words with some grain of salt. He stated both FullHD and QHD can require high CPU power wattage. This does not mean QHD requires more than FullHD. That's exactly the opposite 100%. It can still require some wattage (above 35W? We'll see game by game), but surely it will require LESS than FullHD, I hope you agree with me on that.

So since this thread is about Ionico, we can speak to what I am planning with THIS chassis. And speaking about the picture I showed about Overwatch in 3 different PL, it was exactly the 2020 Tongfang chassis of 15" size (from an old video of OWNorDisown, no less). Its cooling is not perfect, right? I know. In an ideal world I'd choosen a Desktop with infinite thermal dissipation. But we have to choose what we have on the market, that's why I plan to contrast this chassis behavior this way in the Ionico (because I doubt most of the thermals have changed, but a little).
If I am wrong, ok, sure: I'll raise the PL and live with more noise, but if, in certain scenarios, I am correct, I'll be able to use as low CPU power as possible (hence less heat/noise, the culprit of this laptop I suspect).

The scope of this thread was just inform that in 2021 Tongfang chassis it should be possible to customize all of this and seek the best for your certain scenario. You can also already with Throttlestop but having this officially in the CC allows to on-the-fly switch among the profiles with a press of a button on the chassis. Since you have like 15 custom power plans, you can even choose different PL / fan curves for different games, if you wish.

Anyway, thank you for having this discussion with me. It was quite hot, yes, but interesting nonetheless. No joking.
I'll keep you updated once it gets delivered and I have time to test that.

 

[barlew]

I agree witth you that, by limiting CPU PL I might see some improvement in some games, while less improvement or even worsening in other more CPU demanding ones, that's a given.
One single sentence from Bob can be useful, yet he hasn't got his hands on a single RTX 30 laptop with 1440p so, I'd take his words with some grain of salt. He stated both FullHD and QHD can require high CPU power wattage. This does not mean QHD requires more than FullHD. That's exactly the opposite 100%. It can still require some wattage (above 35W? We'll see game by game), but surely it will require LESS than FullHD, I hope you agree with me on that.

So since this thread is about Ionico, we can speak to what I am planning with THIS chassis. And speaking about the picture I showed about Overwatch in 3 different PL, it was exactly the 2020 Tongfang chassis of 15" size (from an old video of OWNorDisown, no less). Its cooling is not perfect, right? I know. In an ideal world I'd choosen a Desktop with infinite thermal dissipation. But we have to choose what we have on the market, that's why I plan to contrast this chassis behavior this way in the Ionico (because I doubt most of the thermals have changed, but a little).
If I am wrong, ok, sure: I'll raise the PL and live with more noise, but if, in certain scenarios, I am correct, I'll be able to use as low CPU power as possible (hence less heat/noise, the culprit of this laptop I suspect).

The scope of this thread was just inform that in 2021 Tongfang chassis it should be possible to customize all of this and seek the best for your certain scenario. You can also already with Throttlestop but having this officially in the CC allows to on-the-fly switch among the profiles with a press of a button on the chassis. Since you have like 15 custom power plans, you can even choose different PL / fan curves for different games, if you wish.

Anyway, thank you for having this discussion with me. It was quite hot, yes, but interesting nonetheless. No joking.
I'll keep you updated once it gets delivered and I have time to test that.

So I think this is all going to end up being a very interesting yet ultimately redundant debate because I don't think you realise quite how good the thermals are on the 17 inch Vyper chassis.

I had the 2070 Max-P with the 10875H, during heavy gaming the GPU would sit around the high 70's to mid 80's and the CPU sat low to mid 80's. Which for that generation of laptops is extremely good. to put it into context my Clevo defiance CPU sat mid 90's low with an under-volt and the GPU sat high 80's.

Now i am led to believe that the mobile 3000 series GPU's run much cooler than the 2000 counterparts so i think this laptop will run pretty cool.

 

[Macco26]

This is music to my ears, really.
But, speaking of ears, how much dB to get this freshness? I think if I could just lower it a bit, it'd be a success nontheless.
I'll keep you updated.

PS: I'm coming from a Clevo whose GTX 970M suddenly broke 4 times during its life, that's why I count on lowering thermals as much as I can, without damaging my FPS as much. That's also why I'm gearing toward a new ODM this time. Let's see how it turns out.

 

[barlew]

This is music to my ears, really.
But, speaking of ears, how much dB to get this freshness? I think if I could just lower it a bit, it'd be a success nontheless.
I'll keep you updated.

PS: I'm coming from a Clevo whose GTX 970M suddenly broke 4 times during its life, that's why I count on lowering thermals as much as I can, without damaging my FPS as much. That's also why I'm gearing toward a new ODM this time. Let's see how it turns out.

I personally didn't think the fans were too bad. You could certainly hear them but i have had much louder gaming laptops.

Any way i am looking forward to hearing your thoughts on it when it arrives.