Acer’s new gaming monitor is capable of reaching a 390Hz refresh rate

  • Thread starter Deleted member 41971
  • Start date
ubuysa

ubuysa

The BSOD Doctor
SlimCini said:
Just picking holes in ONE point you made. No-one can consciously react in 2ms. Fastest human world record is 101ms apparently. Reflex reaction times can be ridic fast, but no-one reflex reacts in games, however much they might try and claim they're a pro and have ridiculous 'reflexes'. You can't just 'make' a response a reflex by doing it over and over again. You can't train a sodium ion to move into a neuron down a gradient more quickly. You can't train a neurotransmitter to diffuse a synapse more quickly. These are inherent delays that will be constant forever. You can train your cerebrum to send the conscious responding action potentials to travel to your muscles via your cerebellum more and more and then be ingrained in muscle memory and become auto-pilot, but this doesn't speed up the response into true reflex reaction speed.

Conscious reactions have to go through the cerebrum. This adds in hundreds of extra synapses to cross. Synapses slow things down because of neurotransmitter diffusion and that is a set speed. Some people just need less synapses and/or have microscopically slightly shorter synapse distances and therefore are in the low 100s for conscious reaction time in milliseconds. And these will be the people who are fighter pilots, F1 racers etc.

I think sprint races false start anyone who moves out of the blocks less than 100ms after the starting sound is made because you can't consciously possibly do that.
Click to expand...
Is it possible that one can train the muscles (of the hand, say) to perform some action (like click the mouse button) so that when give the signal to 'go' the hand can perform the set of actions independently and much quicker than someone who hasn't trained that 'muscle memory'? Would that explain how pro gamers are able to 'react' much more quickly?

They only have to think 'do action click mouse' whilst the rest is muscle memory, lesser mortals need to think the sequence of individual actions separately? Is that possible?
 
S

SlimCini

KC and the Sunshine BANNED
ubuysa said:
Is it possible that one can train the muscles (of the hand, say) to perform some action (like click the mouse button) so that when give the signal to 'go' the hand can perform the set of actions independently and much quicker than someone who hasn't trained that 'muscle memory'? Would that explain how pro gamers are able to 'react' much more quickly?

They only have to think 'do action click mouse' whilst the rest is muscle memory, lesser mortals need to think the sequence of individual actions separately? Is that possible?
Click to expand...
When you say 'independently', what do you mean? The hand cannot contract or do anything without an action potential arriving at it. And that will either have to come from the brain, spinal cord, or artificially induced from an electrical shock. And once an action potential arrives at a muscle, it will always bring about the same cascade of events. Calcium ions flood in, actin and myosin proteins start doing their thing, muscle moves. Again, you can't make calcium ions move any quicker than they already do down an electrochemical gradient. The gradients are fixed. And molecules will always move down the same gradient at the same speed. And you can't make myosin and actin cross bridges do a power stroke any faster than they do. It's fixed. That's why 101ms is the conscious world record, because you reach a point where you simply can't make any of the cascade of events happen any faster because that's how fast ions move etc.

So getting things into 'muscle memory' can help to an extent but not massively. 'Muscle memory' is just getting conscious responses programmed into cerebellum. And the cerebellum can target the muscle fibres far more accurately than the cerebrum on its own. But you can't just remove all the ion movements that have to happen and the synapses that still have to be crossed by neurotransmitters. And it's the synapse crossing that brings about most of the delay. Action potentials can move down neurons ridic fast. But when they reach a synapse the neurotransmitters that cross the synapse are relatively ridic slow and slow it all down.

True reflex responses go from receptor to responding muscle in <10 synapses for the most part.

Conscious responses will go through hundreds of synapses in the cerebrum. You can't train out all those synapses. But you can make two synapsing neurons grow slightly closer together reducing the distance of the synapse, by repeating that response repetitively for a long period. But that will shave off individual milliseconds or two, not bring it down much from the 250ms human average.

I don't buy into the nonsense that pro gamers can train their reaction times significantly. In the same way that F1 drivers, fighter pilots, sprint athletes, boxers, fighters can't do it either. Chances are that those with inherently fast reaction times gravitate towards those pursuits because they find they have an inherited advantage at it. And therefore they do it for hundreds of hours. But the fast reaction time will already be there and causing the high ability, not the other way around.

Lesser mortals do not think any more or less about clicking a button. If you do a standard, old school online reaction test, it won't take more than 30 seconds for you to repeat the task before you can't get any faster. Muscle memory is not really for speeding things up, it's for allowing you to mildly complex reactions without much conscious thought. Walking. Riding a bike. Changing a car gear. Learning to ski. Learning to windsurf. It's mostly balance or fine-movement related. To an extent moving a mouse very specific distances and stopping at a different point on the screen would improve as the cerebellum took over that job. But even then it's not going to really be reaction time there causing a delay, more just someone being a bit naff at using a mouse accurately.
 
Last edited:
D

Deleted member 17413

Guest
Slimcini... I really wanna know what you do for a living!
At very least, you must of studied this stuff at uni? (biology/cell development)
 
S

SlimCini

KC and the Sunshine BANNED
sibun1 said:
Slimcini... I really wanna know what you do for a living!
At very least, you must of studied this stuff at uni? (biology/cell development)
Click to expand...
Ha. Bio at Imperial College (with a various load of optional modules in neuroscience). Now just a bog standard bio teacher.
 
D

Deleted member 17413

Guest
SlimCini said:
Ha. Bio at Imperial College (with a various load of optional modules in neuroscience). Now just a bog standard bio teacher.
Click to expand...
My grades werent good enough for Imperial :(
Ended up at Portsmouth, did Bio but most modules around genetics and cell development!

Never used my degree though, ended up in a -totally- unrelated industry lol

Anyway...back on topic...
390Hz is just daft!
 
S

SlimCini

KC and the Sunshine BANNED
sibun1 said:
My grades werent good enough for Imperial :(
Ended up at Portsmouth, did Bio but most modules around genetics and cell development!

Never used my degree though, ended up in a -totally- unrelated industry lol

Anyway...back on topic...
390Hz is just daft!
Click to expand...
It seems a very arbitrary and arrived at number. As does 144. I get 120. Sort of. Becuase it's double the speed of 60 which was a historic aim. But I don't get why 144 became a thing. What a random number. And now why 240? Quadruple 60? Is that it? And what has 390 as a number got to do with anything?!

Just pick round numbers dude. Or at least just don't so anything until its just a double of the previous iteration! Make it neat!
 
ubuysa

ubuysa

The BSOD Doctor
SlimCini said:
When you say 'independently', what do you mean? The hand cannot contract or do anything without an action potential arriving at it. And that will either have to come from the brain, spinal cord, or artificially induced from an electrical shock. And once an action potential arrives at a muscle, it will always bring about the same cascade of events. Calcium ions flood in, actin and myosin proteins start doing their thing, muscle moves. Again, you can't make calcium ions move any quicker than they already do down an electrochemical gradient. The gradients are fixed. And molecules will always move down the same gradient at the same speed. And you can't make myosin and actin cross bridges do a power stroke any faster than they do. It's fixed. That's why 101ms is the conscious world record, because you reach a point where you simply can't make any of the cascade of events happen any faster because that's how fast ions move etc.

So getting things into 'muscle memory' can help to an extent but not massively. 'Muscle memory' is just getting conscious responses programmed into cerebellum. And the cerebellum can target the muscle fibres far more accurately than the cerebrum on its own. But you can't just remove all the ion movements that have to happen and the synapses that still have to be crossed by neurotransmitters. And it's the synapse crossing that brings about most of the delay. Action potentials can move down neurons ridic fast. But when they reach a synapse the neurotransmitters that cross the synapse are relatively ridic slow and slow it all down.

True reflex responses go from receptor to responding muscle in
Conscious responses will go through hundreds of synapses in the cerebrum. You can't train out all those synapses. But you can make two synapsing neurons grow slightly closer together reducing the distance of the synapse, by repeating that response repetitively for a long period. But that will shave off individual milliseconds or two, not bring it down much from the 250ms human average.

I don't buy into the nonsense that pro gamers can train their reaction times significantly. In the same way that F1 drivers, fighter pilots, sprint athletes, boxers, fighters can't do it either. Chances are that those with inherently fast reaction times gravitate towards those pursuits because they find they have an inherited advantage at it. And therefore they do it for hundreds of hours. But the fast reaction time will already be there and causing the high ability, not the other way around.

Lesser mortals do not think any more or less about clicking a button. If you do a standard, old school online reaction test, it won't take more than 30 seconds for you to repeat the task before you can't get any faster. Muscle memory is not really for speeding things up, it's for allowing you to mildly complex reactions without much conscious thought. Walking. Riding a bike. Changing a car gear. Learning to ski. Learning to windsurf. It's mostly balance or fine-movement related. To an extent moving a mouse very specific distances and stopping at a different point on the screen would improve as the cerebellum took over that job. But even then it's not going to really be reaction time there causing a delay, more just someone being a bit naff at using a mouse accurately.
Click to expand...
Interesting. There's no doubt that some people have faster reaction times than others. Why would that be if it's all just down to the physics of neurons and the like?
 
S

SlimCini

KC and the Sunshine BANNED
ubuysa said:
Interesting. There's no doubt that some people have faster reaction times than others. Why would that be if it's all just down to the physics of neurons and the like?
Click to expand...
Natural variation in a number of things. How many synapses one person's action potentials travels through compared to someone else's for the exact same response. It's not going to be exactly the same travelling through each individual cerebrum. How close the neurons are in a synapse. Variations in ion concentration which might introduce very slight variations in ion electrochemical gradient from person to person. How much myelin you have around your neurons will affect it. Neuron diameter also affects speed and can vary by tiny amounts from person to person.

Most of these factors vary slightly from person to person. Most of them are inherited, some of will be impacted by the environment but for the most part it will be very hard to live a lifestyle to actively adjust that conscious reaction speed a great deal. Suboptimal salt in diet can screw up your action potentials for example. But it's not like eating more calcium, sodium, potassium etc is going to speed up your reaction times once you have enough of them. If you have enough of them then you reach diminishing returns and no further increase in speed. And most people aren't short of ions in their diet.
 
Scott

Scott

Behold The Ford Mondeo
Moderator
The muscle memory comes into gaming where precision and accuracy is concerned. That's what makes the elite gamers.... elite basically. They have a combination of fast reaction times and accurate muscle memory. The muscle memory is developed by practice mixed with natural ability, the reaction time I guess is just down to genetics.

Where FPS is concerned in gaming I think that will relate mostly to the reaction time. There will be a little bit of accuracy/precision in play as the most recent image will offer the best representation of where to aim.... but having a quicker reaction time means you will react to newer information quicker... and thus have a split second advantage of a higher refresh rate.

If you watch any pro gamers getting ready for a match, they tune in their mouse to exact DPI settings. You see them twitching the mouse left and right, to make sure the cursor lands exactly where their muscle memory expected it to. If it's off, they adjust the DPI to match what they are aiming for..... rather than adjust their movement to compensate. This keeps their movement consistent no matter what they are gaming on monitor wise.
 
AccidentalDenz

AccidentalDenz

Lord of Steam
SlimCini said:
It seems a very arbitrary and arrived at number. As does 144. I get 120. Sort of. Becuase it's double the speed of 60 which was a historic aim. But I don't get why 144 became a thing. What a random number. And now why 240? Quadruple 60? Is that it? And what has 390 as a number got to do with anything?!

Just pick round numbers dude. Or at least just don't so anything until its just a double of the previous iteration! Make it neat!
Click to expand...
It's the old 8 bit/16 bit console thing again - numbers being made bigger for no real discernable reason.
 
jamiephillips909

jamiephillips909

Godlike
57iz6e.jpg


Quite clearly 360hz is superior when applied to hedgehogs !
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top