Boot issues

[Spuff]

After installing my wonderful new Samsung 850 pro SSD I had a very difficult time installing Windows 8 on to it.
After half a day I managed to get Windows successfully installed (I wanted a fresh install rather than use an image).

The situation I have now is that if I select the Samsung drive as boot priority I get a boot error and boot does not happen.
However, if I have a disc in the disc drive (it can be any bootable disc) and select the optical drive as boot priority, I will get the press any key to start disc message, and if I leave that the boot continues as normal and the boot is successful.
The boot options in Windows shows two Windows 8.1 but I've tried setting both as the boot OS and I still can't boot directly from the Samsung. I've tried EasyBCD boot manager and added a new boot option pointing to the Samsung C drive, and that does not solve the issue either.
The only boot options in Bios are the ATAPI drive or the Samsung.

Any suggestions?

On another note I've installed 8GB more RAM to make use of Samsung RAPID (which since enabling shows in Crsytal Disk Mark a read speed of 7918 when before it was 526).
When I first tried to boot I got a quick fail with the message that my overclock (which I set when I got the PC) did not work. I've backed the OC off a bit and so far so good (I've done a stress test). Is this some kind of CPU power issue?

 

[SpyderTracks]

After installing my wonderful new Samsung 850 pro SSD I had a very difficult time installing Windows 8 on to it.
After half a day I managed to get Windows successfully installed (I wanted a fresh install rather than use an image).

The situation I have now is that if I select the Samsung drive as boot priority I get a boot error and boot does not happen.
However, if I have a disc in the disc drive (it can be any bootable disc) and select the optical drive as boot priority, I will get the press any key to start disc message, and if I leave that the boot continues as normal and the boot is successful.
The boot options in Windows shows two Windows 8.1 but I've tried setting both as the boot OS and I still can't boot directly from the Samsung. I've tried EasyBCD boot manager and added a new boot option pointing to the Samsung C drive, and that does not solve the issue either.
The only boot options in Bios are the ATAPI drive or the Samsung.

Any suggestions?

On another note I've installed 8GB more RAM to make use of Samsung RAPID (which since enabling shows in Crsytal Disk Mark a read speed of 7918 when before it was 526).
When I first tried to boot I got a quick fail with the message that my overclock (which I set when I got the PC) did not work. I've backed the OC off a bit and so far so good (I've done a stress test). Is this some kind of CPU power issue?

Hiya Spuff, is this on a desktop or laptop? It suggests that although you've set the drive as the boot drive, it's still looking elsewhere. If it's a desktop, it may be worth updating the BIOS if you haven't already.

 

[Spuff]

It's a desktop. When you say update the BIOS, do you mean download an update from the ASUS website (it's an ASUS board), or do you mean activate something in the BIOS to make it refresh its information?
I had a thought today that perhaps it may be because the new drive is connected to data port 5 (I'm Mr. Five Drives), and perhaps the computer is looking for the system on data port 1 where it used to be. I'll try swapping the connections over when I get back this evening.

 

[ubuysa]

After installing my wonderful new Samsung 850 pro SSD I had a very difficult time installing Windows 8 on to it.
After half a day I managed to get Windows successfully installed (I wanted a fresh install rather than use an image).

The situation I have now is that if I select the Samsung drive as boot priority I get a boot error and boot does not happen.
However, if I have a disc in the disc drive (it can be any bootable disc) and select the optical drive as boot priority, I will get the press any key to start disc message, and if I leave that the boot continues as normal and the boot is successful.
The boot options in Windows shows two Windows 8.1 but I've tried setting both as the boot OS and I still can't boot directly from the Samsung. I've tried EasyBCD boot manager and added a new boot option pointing to the Samsung C drive, and that does not solve the issue either.
The only boot options in Bios are the ATAPI drive or the Samsung.

Any suggestions?

On another note I've installed 8GB more RAM to make use of Samsung RAPID (which since enabling shows in Crsytal Disk Mark a read speed of 7918 when before it was 526).
When I first tried to boot I got a quick fail with the message that my overclock (which I set when I got the PC) did not work. I've backed the OC off a bit and so far so good (I've done a stress test). Is this some kind of CPU power issue?

I rather suspect that the booting problem is because you have two Windows 8.1 installations, the original one on the HDD and the new one on the SDD. I'd have expected Windows to offer you a boot menu asking which one you wanted to boot, perhaps the problem is because they are exactly the same OS?

Try temporarily removing the HDD with Windows on it and see whether the SSD boots? If that doesn't work (and you need to preserve the OS on the HDD) I'd suggest removing the HDD and then do a clean install (deleting existing partitions) on the SSD and see whether that boots ok (I suspect it will). You might then just be able to replace the HDD and the SSD should still boot (because the HDD OS was not there at installation time).

 

[dogbot]

With all due respect to ubuysa (I know that he knows that I know that he know more about computers than I do) having multiple installations of the same OS does not make any difference. If you look at the motherboard manual it will probably say that system drives should be on Sata sockets 1-4. The only time you know where an OS is going to be installed is when there is only one unpartitioned drive. Otherwise do a CUSTOM install which gives a choice of locations to install to.

Looking in disc management should show which drive is the boot drive. That drive should be set as the boot drive in the BIOS boot sequence. Check that it does boot (it should be the default in the boot manager). Now try the other OS in boot manager. If this fails to boot then boot using the Windows disc selecting Custom install and repair Windows. If both operating systems are shown, select the one to repair otherwise let Windows try repairing itself, then reboot again from the disc. This time both OS's should be shown with the option of repairing the boot up.

Use easyBCD to rename the operating systems in boot manager (so you know which is which) and reset the boot default if required.

 

[Spuff]

I only have one valid installation of Windows now, on the Samsung (I have an old W7 on a drive which I can't delete (I have other data on there I don't want to lose)), but I knew that is unbootable). The Samsung is the only drive available in the BIOS boot options. The only other thing that appears is my optical drive. The Samsung only has one primary partition and disk manager shows it as the boot drive.
My hope lies in switching my Samsung to data port 1. I can't try that yet because the data connector in the Kingston SSD where Windows used to be is too tall and clashes with the third drive down. I need to wait for a new connector. (the Kingston was installed by PCS and has a different brand of connector than the one I've used on my other drives). The manual doesn't say the system drive is restricted to any particular port though.

If I let the boot options screen appear it offers me two Windows 8's, neither of which work. If I go through the installation disc process I can get to a screen that offers me the two 8's plus the 8 on 'Volume 5' (the drive is connected to port 5) which is the correct option, that when selected results in a successful boot. Subsequent boots need any bootable disc inserted (I've got a rescue disc in, I'm afraid of wearing out my install disc)) and when the boot from CD option goes the boot happens as normal and successfully.
I completely wiped the Kingston and made it logical, so I would expect that to have no vestige of W8 left. The Kingston is still in the PC providing me with a super-fast disk imaging backup opportunity.

 

[dogbot]

I'm a bit confused by some of this. You should have been able to repair the boot to each drive in turn using the Windows install disc or repair disc. Two things worry me and that is the long time it took to install W8 (should have only taken about 30 minutes) and the requirement for the bootable disc in the optical drive. I agree with ubuysa that a clean reinstall of W8 would be the best thing.

This is not the sort of thing I do every day of the week so I can only suggest what I would do in this situation. Apart from the Samsung, back up the other system drives and other partitions as disc images or file backups as appropriate. Remove the unbootable system drive. Repair the boot to the remaining drive and in that, delete any partitions in the Samsung to reduce it to an unallocated drive. Turn off the computer and remove all other drives except the Samsung.

Not sure I understand about the connectors. Surely the drives can stay in their present physical location, it is only the connection to the motherboard that needs to be changed. (if it does need to be changed). Install Windows 8 which should create a small 'System reserved' partition for the boot files and the C: partition. After the installation, remove the Windows disc and try out the new installation.

Replace only the additional system drives that you want to use and repair the bootup to that/those drives.

Ubuysa may have comments to add tomorrow.

 

[Spuff]

Not sure I understand about the connectors. Surely the drives can stay in their present physical location, it is only the connection to the motherboard that needs to be changed.
.

That's true. I'm not thinking very straight. I've got a bit of cold which is making me un-think weirdly.
I went down that strange track of thought because to get to the port connections in the evening is too fiddly. I need daylight to fiddle about with them with the PC in-situ, whereas it is possible to have a go at the connections to the drives. I could't face getting the PC out of it's hole again today.

I'm not sure wiping everything again would work. I think where I may have gone wrong was setting the boot priorities wrongly. And I can't face setting up Windows for a third time in about 2 weeks (I had put it back on the Kingston after it seized up).
Yes, if it works all the way through Windows doesn't take long to install, and it didn't take long during my difficulties. It was the part when it needed to reboot where I kept coming to an impasse.

 

[ubuysa]

I'm a bit confused by some of this. You should have been able to repair the boot to each drive in turn using the Windows install disc or repair disc. Two things worry me and that is the long time it took to install W8 (should have only taken about 30 minutes) and the requirement for the bootable disc in the optical drive. I agree with ubuysa that a clean reinstall of W8 would be the best thing.

This is not the sort of thing I do every day of the week so I can only suggest what I would do in this situation. Apart from the Samsung, back up the other system drives and other partitions as disc images or file backups as appropriate. Remove the unbootable system drive. Repair the boot to the remaining drive and in that, delete any partitions in the Samsung to reduce it to an unallocated drive. Turn off the computer and remove all other drives except the Samsung.

Not sure I understand about the connectors. Surely the drives can stay in their present physical location, it is only the connection to the motherboard that needs to be changed. (if it does need to be changed). Install Windows 8 which should create a small 'System reserved' partition for the boot files and the C: partition. After the installation, remove the Windows disc and try out the new installation.

Replace only the additional system drives that you want to use and repair the bootup to that/those drives.

Ubuysa may have comments to add tomorrow.

You give me way too much credit dogbot, there is a whole world of stuff about Windows that I don't understand...

I too am puzzled by all this, which is why I suggested pulling the HDD and reinstalling W8 on the SDD alone to see what happens. This isn't (I don't think) a Windows issue, as you say dogbot, Windows should be able to happily dual boot these two OSs even if they are identical - I was really just thinking out loud when I mentioned that earlier.

Does the team think that UEFI might be an issue here (and consequently GPT/MBR issues)?

 

[dogbot]

GPT is not a world I have entered into.

My thinking aloud is as follows. I don't know how the installation to the Samsung was done. If all the other drives were in place, the boot files on the existing boot drive would be amended to include the Samsung. The Samsung is likely to then have been installed without a system reserved partition. But something went wrong or was felt to be not quite right which caused a spiral into hours of trial and error. Finally we have the situation where the boot files are on the Samsung. IMO there appear to be 2 sets of boot files, one for the Samsung and one for the other 2 system drives. In the BIOS the Samsung is of course the boot drive but is booting to the files for the other2 drives which are in the boot manager. If they cannot be started then it is because the bootup needs repairing. The Samsung remains inaccessible. It is because of all this that a complete clean install of the Samsung was thought to be the best solution.

If you want to retain the current Windows installation then I think you need to start by deleting all existing boot paths and files and certainly those of the other boot drives. It may be enough to delete the entries in boot manager with BCDEdit (I have never had to do all this). Repair the bootup to the Samsung and then the other 2drives in turn.

Anyone else?

 

[SpyderTracks]

In the early days off ssd's you had to disconnect any other drives and Put the ssd on the first port, else it would spread the gpt info and boot partition on secondary drives and boot info would always rely on that second drive.

My guesses is that it's an old sata controller within the bios and an update might correct it.

 

[Spuff]

Thanks for everyone's continuing input.
I tried to put the Samsung into data port 1 but the connector has a little panel you need to squeeze to remove it, and one corner of my GPU is really close to it meaning I can't get my finger in there to squeeze it. I don't want to have to take my GPU out on the off-chance putting the Sam into 1 would help. I put the Samsung into port 2 but the same boot situation remains. I can still boot by leaving a bootable disc in. The practical upshot of this is about 3 or 4 seconds on boot time and the optical drive spinning sound for about 45 seconds, neither of which is terribly inconvenient, but it's a bit inelegant and one would like to think all is working as it should be.

 

[ubuysa]

Dual booting is not something I'm overly familiar with, except in passing (though I have dual booted Windows and Linux by using the GRUB bootloader). Since this is another opportunity for me to learn stuff I've been doing a bit of reading and I'm now wondering whether the problem might be because you have two partitions marked as active? AFAIK you can only have one active partition, that's where the BIOS looks for the bootloader.

Or am I barking up the wrong tree (I may even be in the wrong forest!).

 

[dogbot]

I would not say I was an expert at dual booting but probably use it more than most, for instance if beta testing on an OS for that purpose or trying out, say, W10. On the few occasions I do a new install of the OS it is to a new or unallocated drive. This should then give a small system reserved partition followed by the OS installation on the C: partition. If it is not a clean drive, Windows will tend to ignore any existing reserved partition and include the boot files on the C; drive. This in itself is not a disaster but does limit what can be done with the drive when considering dual booting and disc images. I make changes to the Windows settings and add any small programs that I always tend to use. The disc is then backed up as a baseline disc image for future use, containing both the system reserved and C: partitions. If restoring the image, it is unlikely the reserved partition would be used since by then it would be not applicable.

The drive selected in the BIOS boot sequence has to be the one that contains the boot files (wherever they may be). In those boot files is the boot manager and this shows a list of selectable operating systems based on the information it has. That selection then links to the drive/ partition that the OS is on and hey presto. If another operating system is added, then it has no boot files locally, the current boot location is updated to include the new install. Normally the boot files are in the system reserved partition which means disc images can be swopped at existing OS locations without changing the system reserved partition. However, if the boot files are on a C: partition, that OS probably cannot be changed without repairing the boot paths.

As an example, my laptop arrangement is https://app.box.com/s/i0xxkphji9edceq0lqai

The main OS is an mSata drive(O) while a second OS is on an external SSD via eSata (P). Both drives are 'active' as well as a data drive (D). However, this drive does have Windows default user folders relocated to it. I'm guessing then that an active partition is one that has a direct association with an operating system.

Very recently I had to make substantial changes. Repeated installs/ reinstalls of successive versions of a program had messed up some locations and I needed a fresh install. At the same time I needed to get rid of W10 so I could compare 2 versions of a program. After all this nothing booted and I had to repair the boot files. AS you can see, they appeared not in the system reserved partition but in the mSata OS. Needless to say, it is going to take some effort to get the boot files back into the system reserved partition if future changes are needed.

Now to your problem. I can neither understand or explain why you should need to insert a bootable disc to start an OS. All I can think of is that the boot files were written to the repair disc. Have a look at the disc content to see is there are boot files dated at the time of repair. If so, delete them or, better still, create a new repair disc.

When repairing an OS boot path, and if no OS can be accessed, the resulting boot files can go anywhere, even on a data drive so certain precautions need to be taken. Remove all drives except the one containing your main OS. Repair that using the Windows/ repair disc. Add another OS drive and repair that and so on.

When you first do the Windows repair, it is looking for an unknown fault. There may or may not be an OS to select but a panel will say something like Windows will restart to try and fix the problem. Let it try and boot if you wish but otherwise boot straight into the repair disc again. This time there should be a list of items to fix, one of which is a boot repair. After selecting the OS (unless already highlighted) select the boot repair and Windows should then boot.

That is about all I can say. Good luck.

 

[Spuff]

Now to your problem. I can neither understand or explain why you should need to insert a bootable disc to start an OS. All I can think of is that the boot files were written to the repair disc. Have a look at the disc content to see is there are boot files dated at the time of repair. If so, delete them or, better still, create a new repair disc.

The Windows disc and the rescue disc are not re-writeable discs. As far as I know you can only write once to the 'normal' types of discs I have. Only the Windows disc was in for installation, and it was still in when I made my first successful boot. I now have the (old) rescue disc in, for fear of causing wear on the installation disc.
My thought is that the boot looks more widely for any working installation after offering boot from the optical drive, than it does going by the normal booting route. It may be related to the part of installation when the computer re-starts and boots into Windows rather than opening the disc content.

I probably will try to wipe the Samsung and install Windows again, but my loins are not girded enough for that yet.

 

[ubuysa]

After installing my wonderful new Samsung 850 pro SSD I had a very difficult time installing Windows 8 on to it.
After half a day I managed to get Windows successfully installed (I wanted a fresh install rather than use an image).

<snip>

I think that (the bold text) is probably the clue. You shouldn't have had a difficult time.

<snip>

I probably will try to wipe the Samsung and install Windows again, but my loins are not girded enough for that yet.

I for one would be interested in the outcome..

 

[dogbot]

I feel I am starting to go round in circles. You have two older OS drives and somewhere they would have had a boot manager that was in a system reserved partition or in C: on one of the drives. A new OS was installed on the Samsung and, if all the drives were installed, I would have expected the boot manager to be still at the same location but include the Samsung. If only the Samsung was installed when installing the OS then it would have a boot manager but, being a new drive, it should be in a system reserved partition.

After many unknown changes, the BIOS looks at the default Samsung for a boot manager but apparently does not find one. Perhaps going beyond the default drive it finds an older boot manager pointing to the two older drives and this is what you see as a choice when booting. Whichever way you cut it, all this has to be repaired starting with the Samsung. In doing so it may be necessary to delete existing boot information and start again.

Examine ALL your drives. Where a boot manager exists there will be a 'Boot' folder and a 'bootmgr' file. These are hidden system files. Delete them. In any system reserved partition you need to apply a drive letter before seeing what is inside. If the Samsung has a system reserved partition you could try deleting the contents and moving the Samsung boot file and folder to there for starters but I have absolutely no idea if it would work. Repair starting with only the Samsung installed.

 

[Spuff]

I feel I am starting to go round in circles. .

I certainly also did when I was installing Windows.

 

[dogbot]

I think I have gone through everything including some that you should not even have to consider (and I have never done).

IMO you should be able to recover from this situation but then I cannot see your computer.

 

[Spuff]

Triumph!
My problems stemmed from changing boot priority too soon during installation.
The other thing is the problem installation was done through BIOS. While my old Kingston install was still in place I let Windows drive management format the Samsung - it formatted it as MBR. When I went to install with UEFI I was told I couldn't install to that drive because it didn't have a GPT partition system. I did a data wipe thinking that would clean the disk of all information, but I still couldn't install or re-format it and had to install with BIOS.
This time round I found that all I needed to do was delete the partition (not obvious when there was only one partition on the drive). This made the disk blank of partition type and I was able to smoothly install with UEFI and now I am booting as booting should be.
I don't know if there is any practical difference between BIOS and UEFI booting with a 128GB drive, but you do get nice and crisp screens during installation with UEFI as apposed to the blurry BIOS screens.